Prostitutes - Are Women in Denial About Who Uses Them?

[CKDexterHaven]

I've seen some threads on Mumsnet where a woman is concerned about her husband or partner going on an all-male trip to Thailand or Las Vegas or Prague or Amsterdam. As soon as someone raises the issue of prostitution they are shouted down and told they are jumping to conclusions. Is the issue of nice, middle-class husbands using prostitutes something to which women are willingly blind?

There are millions of prostituted women and girls in the world, and, of course, men and boys too. The slow advancements in women's lives in the developed world mean that women in their thousands are trafficked from East to Western Europe, from South to North America, from Africa to Southern Europe and from Asia to Australia and the rest of the world just to meet demand. It stands to reason that there must be a lot more clients than prostitutes. The ratio must be akin to hairdressers and their clients. So where are the men? And who are they?

I've read interviews with exited prostitutes who say most of their clients were 'normal', often married, middle-class men. I've heard prostitutes say the best time to work is not a Friday or Saturday night but first thing on a Monday morning when mid-life crisis guys who hate their jobs treat themselves before going back to work. But in my lifetime I've only ever met two men who've admitted to using prostitutes. One was very drunk and bragged to his friends, the other one was an 'edgy' mature student who thought it wasn't exploitative because the prostitute was older than him and, therefore, somehow in control of the situation. That's it, two men.

When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s porn was sold in dodgy shops, stripping happened in sleazy men's clubs and prostitution was virtually invisible to anyone who didn't live in a red-light area. Even the most handmaideny of handmaidens I knew felt these things were degrading to men and women. Now that porn is a click away and lap-dancing clubs are in every town centre most women seem to have redefined these things as 'empowering' rather than confront the fact that men they know enjoy dehumanising women who need money. Prostitution is also a lot more visible and, although this has been redefined as an empowering career choice for women, women still seem sensitive to the idea of men they know using prostitutes. Why is this? Is it just the question of tangible cheating or are women not as ok with 'sex work' for women as they say they are?

migsy - you never said it was ok for anyone to be abused?

Ok then, look forward to you admitting that the anti-prostitution survivors are right.

Anything else is placing your experience above theirs - marginalizing and legitimizing their abuse.

How can I ever agree with anti prostitution anyone!? And you'd support me if I told you I was forced to do this? Why can't you just support my right as a human being to be able to make my own choices and be safe.

All areas of the industry should be legal and made safer for everyone involved. Maybe you should support that.

Where I have worked in a few places men talked openly about using prostitutes and going to strip bars and in disgusting detail

Yes it was a misogynist environment as most male orientated surprisingly business are were all men doing so not but sadly many were

Well, up to your conscience.

I don't support your 'right as a human being' because I am busy with the conflicting 'rights of human beings' who, unlike you, are not happy and ok. They're raped and abused.

Why do you feel you're more important than them?

IMO, the people who are suffering most are most important, and I will always prioritize them over someone else who is content.

And btw, I have to point out, love, it's not against your human rights that you can't be paid money for anything you fancy doing.

I can't either. It's like, well tough.

Except, it's not. It's normal life.

I support women who tell me what they were forced into - not women who tell me about their 'choice' and insist those 'choices' and 'happy' experiences should make it ok for others to be raped

She isn't saying that though, that is your take on it, because you seem to categorise women who are prostitutes into either victims, or selfish colluders.

At some point, those victims were selfish colluders too, yes?

Really can prostitution ever be safe?

It can not be by it's very nature but we do need to protect those involved and support women getting away from it. it is not going to go away though I would quite happily see us follow what Sweden has done and prosecute men

I'm not more important but at the end of the day I have my own issues to deal with. If you want to believe most women in this industry are abused well then fine, that's up to you.

knee - no, you misunderstood me. I think you missed my earlier post.

I don't categorize like that at all.

I just prioritize most the people who are suffering most. I don't treat them as liars, unlike this poster.

migsy - I never said that, did I?

I don't know how many women are abused. I said that even if it's just one woman, it's too many.

I do think it's shit and horrible you have your own issues - but how could I morally accept you promoting harm to someone else just to keep yourself happy? I couldn't. It's not ok.

Yeah prostitution can be made safer. I commented loads on another post on here. We should be allowed to work together, that should be legal imo. If the Nordic model was brought in I'd be even less likely to report criminal stuff that's happened to me, I'd end up losing trade as it'd be on par with outing clients.

Calling migsy selfish etc, is going beyond just prioritizing those who are suffering most though, you are placing blame for their predicament at her door.

How do you know it can?

Moran doesn't think so.

Why is your voice more important than hers? You are ok with it - she isn't.

Again, this is saying that the voices of those who profit are more important than those of those abused.

Appallingly exploitative.

I cannot see how it is ok to place 'losing trade' on a par with the suffering of someone who has been repeatedly raped.

but how could I morally accept you promoting harm to someone else just to keep yourself happy? I couldn't. It's not ok

She isn't promoting harm to others, she seems to be saying that she can only be responsible for herself and her own issues.

knee - no, it isn't. I apologize if my posts were somehow unclear, but that's not actually what I said.

knee, to my mind, she is promoting harm to others.

I see you disagree, and of course that is your right.

I'll leave you to it, since it's late, but understand it is a very hard and upsetting topic for all. Perhaps if migsy hadn't begun by talking about 'happy' prostitutes it would have been easier not to think she was talking about 'happy' prostitutes? Just a thought.

I can't stop women being abused in the industry. Legalise it, make it safer and maybe things might get better for those abused. And wasn't she a street worker? I can totally see how that would have been dangerous and exploitative.

But if you are harmed why would another client not want you to report it or is them getting a service more important than your safety

I do lot want to love in a society where it it ok for men to pay a women for their own needs, I want it to change and it can but rather than blame those working involved I want those men to deal with the consequences if their actions

Isn't that like saying women aren't as responsible as men for their own actions?

This debate is one that will rage forever, i don't have an answer to suit everyone but the safety issue is one that needs to be solved now!

I think I get what you are saying CK and I don't think you mean what you are saying in a victim-blamey kind of way. But it does make me feel a bit like a blamed victim. I've had relationships where, with hindsight, I can see that I was being "misled." I really did think that stag nights in Amsterdam were about excessive drinking and that, although Amsterdam is famous for being a red light district, most of the "nice" men I knew weren't going for that. I was probably wrong. So, yes, I was in denial. I have been in denial about a lot of male behaviour over the years, I now realize. The kind of victim-blamers that AnyFucker is describing would be laughing in glee at me and shouting, "I told you so!!" In contrast, I sense that CK's emotion is frustration and outrage on the behalf of women who have been in denial. I feel the outrage but I also feel the shame at my own credulity.

Gosh, migsy however did you stumble across this thread ?

it's a keyword kinda thing, this thread is

I predict a few more keyword warriors will rock up before the sun is up

I have seen migsy in other threads saying she wishes she could get out.

It is not the fault of prostituted women that the sex industry exists, and many when in it, do justify it. Because psychologically you have to have a way of coping with your life as it is.

I suspect a high percentage of men have used prostituted women once. Either having sex, or going to a sex show in places like Amsterdam. The numbers going regularly will be much lower.

Middle class and upper class men are more likely to have affairs than working class men. The theory is that is because of access to money, opportunities to be away from home with a plausible excuse. I suspect the same is true for prostitution. If you travel for work and have a bit of money, there is plenty of opportunity to use prostituted women and get away with it.

None of the research suggests a "high percentage", thankfully. But enough of one to maintain this despicable abuse of women, which has to stop.