This is what misogyny and male entitlement leads to.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638049/7-dead-drive-shooting-near-UC-Santa-Barbara.html

22 yo man murders 7 people as revenge for women not sleeping with him.

"Why are girls sexually attracted to obnoxious, brutish men instead of sophisticated gentlemen such as myself?"

Yes Minnie, a lot of posters on this forum don't do feminism any favours whatsoever.

You said that couldn't be sane and rational men - therefore it must those who are insane. Which by definition are those with mental illnesses.

He didn't have ASD - his parents thought he might have it. He has no diagnosis of narcissism. While we could all play armchair psychologists, the fact is that people with mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence and yet are constantly blamed for it which has been shown repeatedly to increase violence against us. You might not think men who hold these opinions are rational and sane, but that doesn't really mean anything. Many men, the majority of them who have no mental illnesses, hold the view that if a woman doesn't want him, it's because there is something wrong with women. If that women wants other men, then she is a slut and there is something wrong with that guy. Just look at the comments to any of his videos or news articles on it - there are a lot of people going on about this is what women need to think about when they reject men and that women need to pity shags and all sorts of things which essentially blame women for this violence. There are entire websites with thousands of members with people discussing this 'problem with women' who won't shag them. Do you think all those thousands of comments and thousands and thousands of people on those sites are all irrational people with mental illnesses? Do you really want to blame the entire MRA/organized misogynist movement (which has many common attributes with every other hate group and organization) on those with mental illnesses? Cause that's just lazy thinking and puts all the problems on someone else rather than looking at society creates these people.

People can be sadistically violent and hateful without any issues with mental wiring and to think otherwise is to pretty much agree all the horrors and violence that people with mental illnesses go through.

Seeing as the concepts that women are at fault if men are rejected and "nice guys finish last" are common tropes across all forms of media and backed by pretty much all the systems of power and even these acts have their supports, it would seem more likely to be an issue of socialization.

And it's just about "telling off" (seriously?), it's about ALL those men, who run these media and porn companies and run these places of power standing up and saying that these beliefs and their representations have no place in being positively representated. ALL men calling others out when they make those comments. Every time. It's about recognising that this isn';t about a handful, it's a lot of men involved in these movements, and that ALL men can take some responsibility and ensure that they are loud and clear on standing up for women's right to say no, right to say yes, and right not to harmed in her choice.

I'm genderqueer, but yes I do call people out. I've called women and men out when they think they can be violent to children. I called you and others out on thinking it was okay to throw people with mental illnesses and conditions under the bus when you want to dismiss that 'sane' people can do horrific acts of violence and hold vile hateful views. I've called men out on calling women cockteases and complaining about "the friend zone" even when my word on this carries far less weight than a man's. When I sit and watch TV with other people, particularly my kids, I will call out those harmful tropes so these things can be called out for what they are and discussed. They are harmful and without discussing and challenging them, they grow and continue. Silence against oppression is never neutral, it's also gives to the side that hurts. I'm against kyriarchy, and I'm upfront and not really compromising on that and the main thing that allows it continue is people who remain silent and blame those with less power.

I will never think that the feelings and comfort of the group with greater power is more important than the lives and agency and justice for those without. And in this cause, I do not care for feelings of comfort of men when they get all bundled up with the violent ones in discussion because they know that if I say some men or even many men, that gives plenty of people an excuse to say "that's not me" rather than actively look at see if that is really true. Pretty much every man I've had say 'I'm not like that' holds vile views that are exactly like that.

Hello everyone,

Thank you to those who reported this thread to us. We thought it would be a good time to link to our This is My Child myth busting page about autism

Firstly, I meant that all men live in a culture of misogyny not that all men are narcissistic misogynists.

Secondly, it has taken me a lot of decades years and reading and thought to not give a tiny shit how palatable my feminism is to people. Making feminism palatable does two things. It waters it down until it is meaningless and useless. And, it still isn't palatable to the people who hate women. Essentially it's what the Labour party have done to socialism.

You use the analogy of women who kill children so OK let's use that. If there were some women who killed children and it was happening to the tune of 3 a day in the US, and there were blogs by women supporting it and a culture of magazines and media subtlety and not so subtlety reinforcing violence against children. If one in three children was a victim of domestic and sexual violence. If we lived in a culture of hating and belittling children... I would say that it was the place of EVERY woman to stand up and be counted. Absolutely. For myself, I do in my personal and professional life work with children who are marginalized.

I expect every person on the face of the planet to be a feminist, because it is right. Including all men and I expect them to make their voices heard.

Some posts on this thread do come across as hysterical though. Its better to point this out so people can amend their posting etiquette because otherwise no one else outside would take this movement seriously. I don't need to do myself any favours on this thread, but feminists could do to do the cause a favour if they ever want anyone else to take it seriously. I don't use the word hysterical lightly either and consider myself a feminist.

You're worried people won't take the "movement" seriously? Feminism has been around...eh.... a little while now. We went and got the vote and everything. I think people take it seriously. If men didn't take it seriously. MRAs wouldn't be a thing.

YY mrstp,

It can't be palatable and be doing anything, almost by definition.

Well, misogyny and tremendous sense of entitlement is surely the main culprits here. Everything else is largely incidental.

'"numerous men hate women and don't do things like this. "

From 'not all men...' to 'not all misogynists...'

I did wonder how MRA trolls would respond to this story. I guess I know now.'

What on earth are you talking about? I take serious offence to you calling me an 'MRA troll' aswell....do you have any idea the life I have had? I have put up with a lot more violence from men and misogyny than I bet any self righteous poster on this thread has. People like you who describe themselves as feminists sicken me. Infact from spending time on this board there are only a select few regular posters I would even consider a true feminist.

KateMumsnet, its quite obvious on a parenting forum there will be parents with children with particular issues who are going to be very defensive on the subject for obvious reasons and probably take offence easily to any perceived slight of tongue.

What I have witnessed from my friend with ASD is not a 'myth', neither is it a myth that people with ASD often share many common traits (social and emotional immaturity and awkwardness, obsessive behaviour, inability to make eye contact etc etc) with eachother. Yes it would be a myth to state that people with ASD are misogynistic murderers or similar, but alas nothing like that was said. I have to say I consider anyone who has reported the thread on that basis as utterly pathetic.

Thesporky your post is one massive huge rant with barely anything on it actually relevant to what we are discussing. You seem to blame absolutely everything on 'men' without even attempting to look at co morbid factors. That is too simplistic an attitude regardless of what kind of forum we are on.

'You said that couldn't be sane and rational men - therefore it must those who are insane. Which by definition are those with mental illnesses. '

You literally take everything at point blank face value, don't you? That really really does not mean I was trying to say he or any man like him has a mental illness. Why do you attempt to twist my words to suit your rather odd agenda? Again, I do not consider misogynistic twisted thoughts as rational at all. Would you? 'Sane' is just a way of describing and doesn't literally mean insane. Are you unable to read between lines or what?

' I called you and others out on thinking it was okay to throw people with mental illnesses and conditions under the bus when you want to dismiss that 'sane' people can do horrific acts of violence and hold vile hateful views.'

I'm sorry but this is the definition of hysterical. Nowhere, not once did I attempt to 'throw people with mental illness under the bus' (I have bipolar that runs in my family!) OR dismiss that 'sane' people can do horrific acts. What the hell is wrong with you? You have a huge chip on your shoulder and quite clearly take everything LITERALLY. Of course mentally sane people can commit horrific acts, no one ever said once that they didn't.

My point about 'rational and sane' was you (or another poster, cant remember) attempting to tar all men with the same brush by saying 'all men just blame women', and my view was that no they don't, no rational normal thinking man believes that sort of crap. Or do you just believe that yes infact, every man believes that and they are all sane and rational and EVIIILL??!

You seem desperate to convince me that this guy was completely sound minded and did what he did purely because he held misogynistic viewpoints. You do not know and neither do I whether he had a mental illness or not, just because someone hasn't been diagnosed doesnt mean they don't have something. Same with his ASD, his parents suspected he had it. Many people go most of their lives before diagnosis, surely if your such an expert on these things you'd know that?

You are really nonsensical and most of your points are hysterical so I'm going to leave it there.

'You're worried people won't take the "movement" seriously? Feminism has been around...eh.... a little while now. We went and got the vote and everything. I think people take it seriously. If men didn't take it seriously. MRAs wouldn't be a thing.'

Trust me, I'm a young woman and many people do not take it seriously, and that isn't helped by hysterical mass generalizations on men from the feminist community. A lot of people on this board come across as seriously radicalised and that isn't a good thing. That is actually one of the things that puts lots of people off feminism, very extreme one sided viewpoints about men, their thoughts and their behaviour.

I do wonder if any of these posters have sons, tbh....

You're getting really angry 22. Sometimes that is because of something else. There are different flavours of feminism and some people are more radical and some are more liberal. The rads fighting with the liberals doesn't do a lot for the cause. It's OK that some feminists want to break the whole structure of the patriarchy apart and you don't. It is also true that some people who are mentally 'sane' do terrible things because of their views. the fact that we understand this in the context of racism, slavery, war and NOT in the context of violence against women is interesting.

You also might want to Google the very sexist, controlling and nasty history of the word, "hysteria" before using it so freely.

'You use the analogy of women who kill children so OK let's use that. If there were some women who killed children and it was happening to the tune of 3 a day in the US, and there were blogs by women supporting it and a culture of magazines and media subtlety and not so subtlety reinforcing violence against children. If one in three children was a victim of domestic and sexual violence. If we lived in a culture of hating and belittling children... I would say that it was the place of EVERY woman to stand up and be counted. Absolutely. For myself, I do in my personal and professional life work with children who are marginalized. '

Actually you will see women making excuses for mothers who kill their children all the time, infact often it is suggested it is men's fault as 'they just sod off and leave all the childcare etc to the mother tipping her over the edge' 'maybe she had PND' etc etc.

I'd tell you about my life and everything I've been through with regards to rape and men and prostitution and you know what I'd still turn around and say this is utter bullshit- 'we live in a culture of hating and belittling women'. That is not true.

What we do live in is a culture of hating and belittling people who are from the under and working classes, both man and woman. We live in a culture that penalizes and punishes people who don't have money and one that uses the poor as the scapegoat for everything.

There is a porno culture along with one of mass consumerism and materialism and this is aimed at both men and women, making both feel like shite in equal measures. People both men and women are made to feel like shit if they cannot achieve what the media says is desirable. I really do not see any culture of 'hating and belittling women'. Yes there are plenty of misogynists and violent men about but there are also plenty of 'misandrists' who equally hate men (but apparently they have good reason for doing so according to some radical feminists).

MrsTerry trust me I am not angry at all. I'm just trying to understand all this hysterical, nonsensical wailing because a large amount of it stinks of bullshit to me.

'It is also true that some people who are mentally 'sane' do terrible things because of their views. the fact that we understand this in the context of racism, slavery, war and NOT in the context of violence against women is interesting.'

No one said any different, so why do these words keep getting put in other posters mouths?

When has anyone started comparing racism and slavery to violence against women? The fact is there are many people who truly believe that anyone who commits violence against anyone isn't 'sane'.

They are wrong, but why you single out violence against women I do not know. Loads of people believe for example a man who murders another man cannot be sane. They think by definition someone must be mentally ill to do such a thing. I'm pretty sure these people have little understanding of mental illness. The strange thing is how it has been shoehorned into this thread, when no one has even said such a thing.

Just because the word hysteria apparently has sexist and controlling origins, doesn't mean the word cannot accurately describe the inane ramblings of someone in the present day. If something is hysterical, it is hysterical.

'It's OK that some feminists want to break the whole structure of the patriarchy apart and you don't.'

Its telling how you translate mass generalizations about men, their thoughts, beliefs and character into this little nugget.

Just because the word hysteria apparently has sexist and controlling origins, doesn't mean the word cannot accurately describe the inane ramblings of someone in the present day. No, it shouldn't be used to describe women talking. It just shouldn't.

I think you are choosing to see hysteria where there is none. Someone just went out and murdered people and he said he was going to do it because he hated women. He might have a PD, he might be mentally ill, he might have ASD. All conjecture. He definitely hates women.

I compared racism and slavery to this because people are quite happy to understand that normal, boring, everyday people do disgusting things because of racism but cannot seem to see that in connection with sexiam.

BTW, I love my DH, I love my DB, I love my DF. I love my male friends and I'm sure if I had a DS I would love him. I also recognise that the structure of society is evil and misogynist and horrible. Those two things are not incompatible.

' No, it shouldn't be used to describe women talking. It just shouldn't. '

Am I able to use it to describe men who are spouting nonsensical rubbish? There is no other way to describe some of the opinions on here other than hysterical. It matters not who wrote them, also does a posters gender appear next to their name?

'I compared racism and slavery to this because people are quite happy to understand that normal, boring, everyday people do disgusting things because of racism but cannot seem to see that in connection with sexiam.'

I am not one of those people, and did not say anything at all that would indicate I was on this thread. People have just jumped to hysterical conclusions.

I wouldn't deny the structure of society is 'evil and horrible'. I'd say some parts of it are misogynist also. But personally I think the vilification of the poor and worse off is a bigger problem, both here and in the US.

And which women are more likely to be the victims of violence? Those who are poor and in poverty. I know first hand the vast majority of middle class women that call themselves feminists who bang on about misogyny being the root of all evil all the time havn't gone through any of the violent, rapey situations I have that came about because of poverty and lack of money. It doesn't happen to them because of their privileged status.

This is not a conversation with just you, why do you think it is? I am talking about people and society doing certain things, not YOU.

I would flip that about poverty as well. In most of the world and in our country for most of history women were all poor because none of them could own property. We still earn far less than a man doing the same job. Yes, poverty and race are factors, of course. Poor and Black women and women in the majority world suffer most of the brunt of misogyny. Women still die and are raped every day in the West. Rich women die and are raped. Those girls in the sorority house he tried to get into were doubtless privileged.

Even if poverty is a bigger problem (which I don't believe) I don't have a finite amount of concern. I can worry about poverty and misogyny. The solutions may be the same.

So a middle class woman in the UK is by definition worse off than say a random bloke in Syria or Afghanistan, just because shes a woman? Is this woman more at risk of violence than those men? Give me a break fgs, please don't try and say yes.

'We still earn far less than a man doing the same job'

This is bullshit. A 9-5 job at tesco pays the same for anyone, man or woman. You are clearly discussing the all over gender pay gap and a lot of that is to do with the fact women physically give birth to children (the fault of biology, not men) and often raise them (you could have a point with this part). This leads many of them to then go back to work that is part time/lower paid, leading to an all over gender pay gap.

This is totally ignoring the amount of privileged middle class women who don't work and infact don't need to because they rely on their DH wage. Before you say anything, no one forces women to make such choices. They tend to do it of their own free will.

You pointing out that on a rare occasion a rich woman might get raped is either here nor there, poverty is the big indication on whether a woman is likely to experience DV, rape or abuse.

You have admitted as much yourself, so how can you now say 'misogyny' is more of an issue than poverty? Is it because its hard to admit that infact if the whole of society, not just men but including those well off women were a bit more empathetic and had a bit more compassion for those who are vulnerable and poor, many women would be in a better position, or would this stop all the middle class feminists being able to play the victim all the time?

I am actually shocked you don't think that on a worldwide scale poverty is more of an issue than misogyny.

'Those girls in the sorority house he tried to get into were doubtless privileged. '

Yes, and this is big news even on the other side of the planet because its such an unusual thing to happen.

Is poor women being raped, beaten in relationships and exploited in prostitution world news? No, because it happens everyday all the time.

And tbf, no one could give two shits because the media and society only ever care about middle class and above, well off white women being the victims of violence. Its the same with children, look at Madeleine McCann compared to the huge amounts of poor, mixed race or other children who go missing.

If anything, our society puts on a pedestal middle class well off white women, far from 'hating and belittling them'.

Could you at least show minimum thread-politeness by writing one post each time instead of 3-4? Thanks.