Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

I answered that question several pages back, as well Get.

You just didn't like the answer.

Ok - but I did try and explain why I don't condemn the dancers several times

Ah yes, because they have feelings and needs.

Nope - not feelings and needs at all GetAll.

As I'm now tired of saying it's because I don't want to blame women dancers for the bad behaviour of the men who visit the clubs. That the men going to these clubs and spending their money on naked women create the demand for them. Why do you persist in ignoring this?

Don't agree? Fine - that's your right. But don't try and make out that I (and others) haven't said it.

I, and others, would like you to be consistent in your criticism, and not single women out as being unfit for criticism when men and women together are doing something you disapprove of. Critcise both, or neither, then I could respect your views.

< bangs head against wall >

It's not a question of liking your answer Somerset, we're not on FaceBook, I just didn't find you answered the question.

I asked about your attitudes to women who lap dance ( or contribute towards objectification in other ways ) who aren't doing so through abuse or drug habits. Your answers are all about women who are there through drug habits and abuse, or you just talk about demand.

Which I find is evading the question.

To answer grimble's question - hypothetically, if I went and met her, I assume it would be embarrassment all round. I'd wonder why the hell she was there, but then again she would be thinking the same thing! Incidentally, I would not be surprised if her generation had a much more relaxed attitude to working there, perhaps because in many cities they are part of the landscape.

But, I am not defending them. I haven't on here, I don't think. All I have done is question why people feel the need to heap all the blame on the punters (even though I think I know why).

On balance, whilst I can see that many LDC's might be legitimate, and many women working there do so because they want to, my gut feel is that we, as a society, would be better off without them. As I say, it's a gut feeling, and I am not really sure if I am being logical.

1. Jo wants consistency.

I've given my firmly held view and reasons for why I do not and will not criticise both. You're utterly and absolutely free not to 'respect' those views. Just as I'm free to very much disrespect your views. :)

Jothehot - we'll have have to do without your respect then - somehow we'll struggle along without it I'm sure.

I for one will lay the blame for lap dancing clubs firmly where it belongs - with the men who think it's normal and fine to pay for women to take their clothes off.

As we are going round in circles a bit here, would the objections also apply to shows like that place is Paris with can-can and topless dancers - is it Moulin Rouge? I have never been, but I believe it's a 'cultural' venue rather than a titty bar, frequented by couples rather than single men. Do they still have dancers with bare breasts?

You are both free to expound your internally inconsistent views without my support. You may both cry from the rooftops that women and men are equal, except that women who strip are less equal than the men who watch them, because

-the men know what they are doing but the women don't.
-the women are granted a special exemption in the interest of female solidarity.
-stripping is different from all other immoral exchanges, in that the consumer bears all the blame, and the supplier none, because er....just because.

namechangeguy: so, like GetAllTheThings your reaction would be embarrassment all round.

Which begs the question..if LDCs are acceptable there should be no embarrassment. So why would there be embarrassment?

I do actually understand why posters may be irritated at the focus being all on the men rather than on the women - it's a natural defence mechanism to condemnation (a sort of what about the womenz reaction, to turn a common comment on these threads on its head).

But it is a fact that it is a demand-led industry. Cut the demand, the industry dies because no woman could make any money from it.

Grimble, did you see where I said;

'On balance, whilst I can see that many LDC's might be legitimate, and many women working there do so because they want to, my gut feel is that we, as a society, would be better off without them. As I say, it's a gut feeling, and I am not really sure if I am being logical.'

Is that answer enough, or did you want me to expand? I am happy to do so.

And I cannot think of a capitalist enterprise that isn't demand-led.

GetAll, what if your DD wasn't at a lap dancing club to put herself through college but was there as her medium term job option?

Namechangeguy: 'On balance, whilst I can see that many LDC's might be legitimate, and many women working there do so because they want to, my gut feel is that we, as a society, would be better off without them. As I say, it's a gut feeling, and I am not really sure if I am being logical.'

Thanks for that. I also cannot think of a capitalist enterprise that isn't demand-led - and certainly I think lap dancing clubs are. So yes, jothehot the onus is on the consumer in the cases of LDC's.

I don't think the (predominantly, if not totally male) club owners get away scot-free either. They are profiting from the exploitation of women, but they would be unable to do so with the consumer being willing to part with their money and go into these clubs.

I have to go now, but thinking about Doc's last point - what could I say to my daughter if it's what she wanted to do? If I was satisfied that she wasn't there against her will, and she wasn't involved in illegal activity, I would be stuck with it. And as I said before, I would not be surprised if her generation were far less judgemental than mine about it.

grimble if my daughter walked in on me having sex there would also be major embarresment all round. That does make sex any more or less acceptable based on that experience.

If I bumped into her in a nudist camp we'd likely be embarresed but I wouldn't automatically think nudist camps were a bad thing.

What would you do if you met your daughter ( hypothetically ) at a LDC ?

DOS dd would be an adult, old enough to make her own decission.

I would hope she'd feel I'm always there for her if she needed me.

Running, several pub/clubs are run/owned by women and the agencies providing dancers are all run by women from what I have been told. Certainly been told that the best run strip pubs in London are owned/run by women according to my neighbour and I have no reason to disbelieve her.

Sausage, it's a long thread - is your neighbour a lapdancer, I forget?

GetAllTheThings: hypothetically? I would a) be very disappointed that I had done such a lousy job of bringing her up that she should set her sights so low; b) be disappointed that she wasn't as intelligent as I thought she was; c) ask her if she was skint (unlikely) and be supportive enough to give her enough money to get the hell out of the dive and do something useful with her life.

If c) was not an option and she actually enjoyed it, I would be forced to conclude that there was no more I could do and at some point bloody fools must be allowed to be bloody fools - which brings me straight back to my original point that I am not a person who bans things because I don't approve of them.

But as my daughters (in real life) think these places are tawdry, sleazy pits they wouldn't be seen dead in, I am stretching the word hypothetical to the point of ludicrousness.

PS I wouldn't be embarrassed though because that is just naff. I wouldn't be embarrassed at a nudist camp either (if I and daughters were nudists) because nudist camps tend to be family orientated anyway. As for walking in on sexual activity - that is an intrusion on what is normally a private activity and in no way comparable to public sexual displays such as LDCs.

No answer from Larry to my question, but perhaps he has just gone off line.

The reason I asked about daughters though was to try and make this personal. We can all think in the abstract and dispassionately about what we do and don't approve of and talk about the women in LDCs as if they were almost cardboard cut outs - anonymous figures, offering anonymous titillation etc.

I just want the male posters to replace those anonymous figures with real women - their daughters, probably one of the most precious people in their lives.

Every lap dancer is someone's precious daughter. Is that really what we want for our children? And if they are not precious - if they are abused or vulnerable, even more so is that what we really want for them?

Anyway, gotta go, dinner's burning..

grimble so essentially you think women in LDCs ( standard disclaimer about abuse / drugs ) have (a) crap parents, are (b) stupid and (c) possibly skint ?

That sound a smidge judgemental.

I just want the male posters to replace those anonymous figures with real women

Grimble. You are assuming us male posters see women who work in the sex industry as anonymous cardboard cut outs.

I personally don't. You've no idea about how I view the world or the people in it so best not to make assumptions, but I appreciate your explanation.

Perhaps if the men who use these clubs were also seen as humans ( however misguided or at fault ) rather than one dimentional pricks, low lifes and wankers it might help the issue of why they go there, because I think there must be a whole range of reasons.

GetAll, grimble was asked what she would think if she found her dd in an LDC, and she responded personally. In no way was her post a general judgement on other people's parenting etc, and I'm pretty sure you know that.