Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal


"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

[SomersetONeil]

I think it was meant to be addressed to me, Sabrina. :)

"Usually an ex who contributes nothing"

Maybe somone could see if he'd be willing to strip.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

I'm at a loss as to why GetAll's last post was addressed to me.

[GetAllTheThings]

Sorry , have been cooking...

Sabrina

Well , I guess I should have paid more attention , clearly comparisons are problematic. 

People have been using them through the thread. 

The tobacco industry was used , for example, in a point about demand but nobody complained that smoking causes death and disease and couldn't be compared to dancers for such reason.

I think you're being unfair. But I could have composed it better.

I just wanted to make the point that people can do things with the very best of intentions that can have the oppersite effect.

It's partly why I'm very sceptical about peoples arguments sometimes.

Roads paved with best intentions and all that jazz. I don't mean that to sound patronizing.

But no I don't think anyone is going to starve or die from LDCs closing.

However. I think there a great deal of children living in poverty and going hungry in the UK. In fact I know there are. And I think sadly it's going to get worse.

So yes we have social security. But go onto loneparents and see the kind of problems going on. Usually an ex who contributes nothing and a mum ( usually ) doing her very hard best. Hardly seeing her dc And still not making ends meet.

There is I believe a line of feminist thought about 'choice'. That you may as well try and get what you can from the patriarchy. As said above , relieve the fools from their money.

I know it can be damaging. Women thinking wet tee shirt comps are empowering etc.

I can see the argument about objectification and women bring told their value is as only as something nice to look at. 



Sorry I'm just thinking aloud more than anything. rambling . I have a child to put to bed and read a bed time story to....

[SomersetONeil]

Get - that situation would be comparable only if lap dancing was pretty much the only 'choice' open to Woman X trying to make ends meet. As in the situation for the Pakistani boy, where the factory may have been the only place for him to work.

Woman X is not going to be left high and dry, is she? I mean, seriously, is she?

Because what do men - and indeed, most women - do when they find themselves in financial straits? Strip for money? Fat chance.

I'm actually quite uncomfortable with the parallel being drawn - sorry, I don't mean to make you feel bad, but the situations just aren't the same at all. The child literally does not have a choice and is probably in a life or death situation.

I'd also like to pop in a gentle reminder at this point that my stance throughout this thread has not been to ban LDCs. I'd copy and paste myself, but God knows where in thread I made the point!

I'd rather challenge mindsets and have faith in the fact that attitudes have shifted fundamentally for the better in terms of, e.g. racism, disability, sexuality, etc. Things have improved immeasurably for women since the advent of feminism and there's no reason to think it can't continue to improve. Threads like this go a long way towards challenging mindsets - not always for people who are unwilling to see, but if even one lurker on this thread is now thinking of things slightly differently, then that's progress.

[GetAllTheThings]

Grimble, having a woman on the thread that is in broad agreement isn't someting I'd miss.

Have I accused you of wanting to ban LDCs ?!

Perhaps I foolishly thought we were having a conversation where I could express my thoughts. It wasn't an attack on your views.


Next time I'll preface it with 'yes Grimble good point , I also have these thought on it'
< confused >

[grimbletart]

Not confrontational - just feel it is necessary to restate (again) in response to your final sentence at 17.21 unless of course you were making a general point in a vacuum and not responding to my post in which case I promise not to make the same point ever again.

I am so laid back I am horizontal.

[GetAllTheThings]

And, to remind you again, I have never said LD should be banned or that single mums should stop

You don't have to remind me Grimble I'm quite aware of it. Why are you being so confrontational ?

[grimbletart]

Well you seem to be comparing otherwise I can't see why you would bring up that example out of left field. I still think it is inappropriate to talk about a poverty stricken Pakistani family with no welfare network in the context of discussing lap dancing.

And, to remind you again, I have never said LD should be banned or that single mums should stop. Everyone who feels they are economically forced into a choice must do what they can do survive.

The ones that disappoint me (as a woman) are the highly educated intelligent women who are in pursuit of a quick short term, short lived buck - though I must confess some wry satisfaction that their motive may be that a fool and his money are soon parted.

[GetAllTheThings]

grimbletart

Am I comparing the two ?

I was just saying that if you remove someone's revenue stream by banning an activity you find abhorrent it can in some circumstance leave them high and dry.

Not those educated women going through uni, but the women who don't have a decent education to fall back on and perhaps live in a deprived area with high unemployment and little opportunity.

Someone earlier in the thread ( when the shelf stacker issue came up ) said 'well pay shelf stackers the same as lap dancers.' Not really a realistic solution.

I'd find it quite difficult to explain to a single mum who finds lap dancing helps her in life ( I've seen a few on these threads ) why she should stop and instead find a low paid job or go on social security.

[grimbletart]

GetAllTheThings: you are right, it is problematic - comparing a grindingly poor family in Pakistan with lap dancing in a (comparatively) rich western country with a welfare network.

[GetAllTheThings]

One thing that sticks in my mind, and I know it's problematic, is from a news piece years ago about the success of a western charity that managed to stop child labour in some Pakistani clothes factories.

Whilst the charity were celebrating, a young local boy ( I guess about 10 ) was complaining, saying he was the only wage earner in his family and what on earth was his family going to do now that he couldn't continue working in the factory.

[grimbletart]

I haven't posted for the last few days, just lurked with interest.

Like that author I am against a ban although I loathe and detest these sleazy meat pits.

Partly, that's because, as I said, I am not a person who bans things because I don't personally like them, but, even more it's because I would hate to see them go underground with even less protection for the dancers than they already have.

What I fervently wish for is that they eventually go the way of bear baiting, slavery, sending little boys up chimneys etc. (although these were, it is true, legally banned) i.e. society gets to the point where exploiting women's bodies for money at LDCs becomes one of those things that decent men just don't do because it is simply seen as a relic from the time we lived in caves and dragged our knuckles along the floor.

LCDs are an example of how thin is the veneer of civilisation.

[runningforthebusinheels]

I like this from the article too:

What would be your advice to men reading this interview who are interested in reducing the harm done to women by the lap dancing industry?

"I would strongly urge men to not give in to peer pressure, if you don?t like how some people are talking about women, lap dancers or any women! Please have the courage to say something. To paraphrase a frequently cited expression, all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to say and do nothing. If you don?t want to go to a lap dancing club, don?t go. It does not have to be a normal part of stag dos etc. You have a choice."

This is interesting because on MN threads where a woman has found out her partner's been to a LDC, his excuse is often peer pressure.

[GetAllTheThings]

Glad you don't think I do :)

[runningforthebusinheels]

Glad to hear you don't want me to condemn them.

[GetAllTheThings]

Oh I'm not suggesting anyone condemn them. I know you think I'm hell bent on getting you to condemn women, I'm not. I just feel that some women share some of the responsibility.

As she says it's 'difficult to solely blame the patriarchy' . I appreciate it's not a view shared on here.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Should add, I, myself, don't 'blame' her for her part in it. I blame and condemn the people that open these clubs and the people who go to them.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Again, GetAll - I would point out that there is a difference between holding women 'responsible' for their part in consciously choosing to dance in LDCs and condemning them for it.

Taken in the context of a highly sexist and sexualised culture, I just cannot bring myself to condemn these women.

This is very interesting though - taken from the interview GetAll linked to:

What lap dancing showed me was the ugly side of human behaviour, regardless of sex or gender. I have observed both women and men behaving like animals. This is what the sex industry can draw out of us all if we are not careful. It appeals to our base nature, that side of us that without monitoring can make us uncivilised. Our responsibility as human beings is to aspire for more and create a greater society than the one we first entered. I feel that I completely failed in this. I was drawn to lap dancing for my own personal gain, without a care in the world about the effect on anyone else, I didn?t care about the men and if this was healthy for them, or how hurt their wives or partners could be. I didn?t even care about myself.

It's saddening, and it sounds like she regrets and blames herself for her part in the lap dancing industry.

[GetAllTheThings]

Well, it's her opinion - and if anyone's entitled to their opinion, she is. But it's not one I share

Oh I agree. It's just interesting in the context of this thread that she has views that mirror your opinions and at the same time has opinions that mirror some of mine.

Perhaps we should invite her on here as a mediator :o

[GetAllTheThings]

Sorry, there seems to be a kind of generic interview ( running has already linked to one )

Another is here

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

GATT can you link to these interviews if you want to discuss them?

[runningforthebusinheels]

Well, it's her opinion - and if anyone's entitled to their opinion, she is. But it's not one I share.

[GetAllTheThings]

If we're quoting her, I did hold off quoting this...

' It is becoming increasingly difficult to solely blame the patriarchy; women must take responsibility for their actions too. '

[runningforthebusinheels]

And here's a quote from the article for Daddancer:

" Naively, she believed the dancing would be fun, glamorous and she would be able to pick her customers, which was not true. ?Sometimes I was really repulsed because they had been drinking so heavily, but also it was age. When it was for someone 45 and above I would have in the back of my head ?you probably have a daughter.? I would make a moral judgement on them, but I would still dance for them. And I think this can be psychologically damaging because it becomes a question of what you will do for money.? "

(My emphasis)

Although I expect he'll just put his fingers in his ears and go la la la again.

[runningforthebusinheels]

I would guess that it's similar to the line Lucy Holmes is taking against page 3. She's insists she's not calling for a ban either - but would clearly like the Sun to do what, she thinks, is the decent thing and stop printing pics of bare boobs in a 'news' paper.