Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

I have tried to be honest and fair in my previous post about what I feel so I am now looking forward to an honest response from male posters to the question in my final paragraph.

Thanks running and tunip for the support

Larry, with regard to your latest post on objectification in LDC's and how it affects women in the workplace. I would like to say that in my first job, I was told by the men that I should be getting my tits out for the lads, and why was I wasting my time in that job? A copy of page 3 was being waved in my face at the time.

Sexual objectification of women, be it LDC's or page 3 does have an effect on women in the workplace.

And I'd like to see the men answer grimbletarts question too.

Running,

The first time I ever went to a LDC was entirely by accident. It was Stringfellows which, up to that point, had been a regular club. It had been converted to the "Cabaret of Angels". There was no way I had a pent up desire to go lap dancing. I had never heard of it and it seemed quite bizarre.

It then seeped into the City culture at that time. It was at least partially founded on the basis that most late night clubs/bars were not accessible to groups of men on their own. And, most City nights out started with a meal at a very good restaurant and then it was a question of where to go with a bunch of guys (and, at that time, it was predominantly guys).

Of course, the change of licensing laws has subsequently negated the above need for LDCs. I really am not sure that there was this latent demand for them, unless you mean that men will happily pay up to mix with very pretty women. Which is hardly rocket science when you consider that most regular clubs have certain times when entry is free for women or drinks are served at reduced prices to them. I guess that above does show a difference between the sexes but it seems one equally embraced by men and women. Maybe it is basic biology and maybe it is a consequence of the evolution of society; what you would term "patriarchal". I don't think this, or any other thread, has actually, in a meaningful scientific way, got us any closer to resolving that one in either direction, despite people's strong visceral beliefs.

For clarification, grimble, I don't go to them. I am not ignoring your question. I suspect many men see it as a bit of a laugh, and if challenged, might say that it's no different to hen parties watching the Chippendales. I can see why it isn't, though.

At the same time, I don't think it's part of the male psyche to go around deliberately demeaning women by turning up at these places when pissed. There is no widespread 'hatred', which is a word I see to easily bandied round on here. If anything, it will be more of a thoughtless act, rather than a vindictive one.

Sorry Larry, can you explain what you mean by "Of course, the change of licensing has subsequently negated the above need for LDCs." ?

And I think you should amend your post to some men will pay to mix with pretty women. There is no need to pay to mix with pretty women - pretty women are all over the place - freely going on nights out in places where women are not being paid to get their kit off. Some of them will get their kit off with men of their choosing of their own free will

Why do you think it's ok for men to pay for half naked women in clubs?

Oh, and are you studiously studiously ignoring sabrina's question re. sexual objectification of women and women in the workplace?

Sabrina,

When I started in the City, it was horrifically sexist. I could not agree more. There were some truly shocking guys around and, yes, porn and page 3 were prevalent on desks. Lap dancing certainly did not exist in the UK then.

However, it is just not like that any more (with the exception of a few neanderthal organisations). So, I am not sure that LDCs can be claimed to have a detrimental effect on the workplace. Certainly not enough to outweigh strong laws and HR departments and just many more women represented in all areas of work.

namechangeguy: Sorry, I think you misread my question. You are answering a question I didn't ask. It was not about general attitudes to LPDs by male posters.

It was very specific: namely Finally, may I ask the male supporters of LPDs here what they would do if they were in an LPD, asked for a dance and found that it was their own daughter who turned up in front of them?

Ok. gimble

First, I obviously can't claim to speak for educated lap dancers but from what I've read on MN when they post about these issues they cite flexible hours and relatively good pay as being high up the list.

I would guess that for a single mother or indeed a student those are going to be attractive propositions if comparable non sex based alternatives are not available.

As for seeing ones daughter in a LDC.... I really don't know because I don't visit them. I'd imagine extreme embarrassment on both sides.

I would hope however that my dd when she's older will feel she can tell me anything without me judging her ( hopeful ) . If she told me she worked in an LDC without coercion or desperation I'd accept her choice and offer any support if she asked for it. Otherwise she'd be an adult and it wouldn't be my place to tell her what to do.

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other about LDC, I'm forming one based on threads like this. I don't visit them and have no plans to. I've been to one in my life in America when my cousin and his wife took me to a pole dance club.

I really only started piping up over the issues around criticism of parties involved in objectification.

Running,

I mean that since men can now go to any pub post 11PM, there is no need for lap dancing clubs for that purpose. How was my last post not clear?

Most men will pay to mix with pretty women, most not directly but why do you think that bouncers of smart bars/clubs vet the entry and always allow in pretty women? Why do you think there are bars where drinks are half price for women at certain times? Do you think these businesses just do that for a tiny minority of men? It would be a pretty crazy business decision.

Sorry grimble, I did misread. As I said, I don't frequent them though. At my age, a good night out is a decent pint, good friends and the ability to hear a conversation

Ah, sorry, no that part wasn't clear Larry.

No, I don't agree that men going to normal clubs to mix with pretty women is the same as going to a LDC where a woman is part of the paid-for entertainment.

Would you go to a LDC now Larry?

Running,

Cannot imagine I will ever go again given that it is 12 years since I have been. Feel a bit old for that kind of thing, too, would feel a bit like Benny Hill (although not quite that bad!).

However, were I to be with a group of people who all wanted to go, I would not be a killjoy and would at least go along for a while because, as you know, I don't have the principled objection that you do.

GetallTheThings: So you would both be embarrassed - wonder why if LPDs are just another place of work or entertainment? Glad to hear you would be supportive of your daughter, but I hope you would be supportive enough to encourage her to do something more worthwhile with her life.

NameChangeGuy: you don't frequent them? Good. But hypothetically you are sort of defending them. So why not answer the question hypothetically?

Suddenly we have two male posters distancing themselves Perhaps because a picture of a (hypotethical) 18 year old daughter is popping into your heads?

Larry - what would your reaction be?

Yes I noticed the 'distancing' too. Arguing vociferously for the rights of men to pay for women to wiggle around half naked - then oh, no I don't go to them/ I went once/ I went years ago, wouldn't go now.

Or were the men on here just wanting to pitch women against women with their absolute desperation for me to condemn and blame the dancers?

When I started in the City, it was horrifically sexist. I could not agree more. There were some truly shocking guys around and, yes, porn and page 3 were prevalent on desks. Lap dancing certainly did not exist in the UK then.

However, it is just not like that any more (with the exception of a few neanderthal organisations). So, I am not sure that LDCs can be claimed to have a detrimental effect on the workplace. Certainly not enough to outweigh strong laws and HR departments and just many more women represented in all areas of work.

Interesting. Out of interest, Larry, how do you think we got from the one state of affairs (a 'horrifically sexist' culture) to the other (it 'just not being like that any more')?

Do you think this fundamental mind-shift in attitude happened in a vacuum...?

Gimble. I guess because evidently they aren't just another place of work, I've never said they were. The women or men getting their kit off are paid a premium for doing so that a shelf stacker will not. But I don't see that as a reason to shut them all down.

And of course I encourage my lovely daughter to be something worth while. I wouldn't be much of a dad if I didn't. She's only 3 but I tell her she can be anything. And if she doesn't become an astronaut, a racing driver or a dinosaur tamer, I won't give her too much of a hard time.

But if she ends up lap dancing to get through college I wouldn't castigate her.

I worked in a photo lap till 3am four days a week when I was at college for not much money. If someone had said 'how about getting your kit off infront of a load of drunk men who can't touch you for £300 a night' I certainly would have considered it.

Yes I noticed the 'distancing' too. Arguing vociferously for the rights of men to pay for women to wiggle around half naked - then oh, no I don't go to them/ I went once/ I went years ago, wouldn't go now.

Well I'm not actually arguing 'vociferously' for lap dancing clubs, I just don't get the attitude that women are blameless in these situations.

You just said you wouldn't castigate your daughter if she became a lapdancer. But you'd like me to castigate her instead? (I won't).

Or were the men on here just wanting to pitch women against women with their absolute desperation for me to condemn and blame the dancers

lol.

Yes we're in absolute despair !

Sabrina

Jesus Sabrina you're obsessed with this idea that I want you to castigate lap dancers. How many times does it need to be said ? Are you a slow reader ?

I don't want you to castigate lap dancers or set women on women. I simply wanted to know why you feel women are beyond criticizm. Completely different.

Well, you were all rather going on a bit.

Ok - but I did try and explain why I don't condemn the dancers several times. So did many other posters - so maybe you're the slow reader?