Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

By the way, I'm very impressed that, despite your busy work and family life, you have time to post on here extensively about how wonderful lapdancing clubs are - it must be something you feel quite passionately about

All that mind-blowing decor I expect..............

Yes, Rosabud - mindblowing human decor.

Hey please stop trying to twist things around Rosebud. You are just coming across as someone who is trying to be clever now. If you don't understand the logic of my arguments then that's your problem not mine.

It's also wrong to argue that you can only comment if you have direct experience because, in fact, as many on here have posted, lots of men DO understand how lapdancing clubs can make women feel objectified.

Sorry but this is just incoherent. How does experience of attending lap dancing clubs compare to other men's understanding of how lap dancing clubs make women feel objectified?

Seriously you should get your own house in order before trying to criticize others

You are just coming across as someone who is trying to be clever now.

I'm not trying to be clever - I AM clever!

Sorry but this is just incoherent. How does experience of attending lap dancing clubs compare to other men's understanding of how lap dancing clubs make women feel objectified?

Err.....I think you'll find that it is your sentence which is incoherent. And there is no need for the patronising "sorry" at the beginning of the sentence, I can cope with a man disagreeing with me, it's happened before.

Seriously you should get your own house in order before trying to criticize others

And there we go with the rude, angry, aggressive tone when you feel you have been criticised and you don't fully understand the argument against you.

DadDancer -

Rosabud's sentence -

"It's also wrong to argue that you can only comment if you have direct experience because, in fact, as many on here have posted, lots of men DO understand how lapdancing clubs can make women feel objectified."

DOES make sense.

Your sentence -

"Sorry but this is just incoherent. How does experience of attending lap dancing clubs compare to other men's understanding of how lap dancing clubs make women feel objectified?"

DOESN'T make sense.

I think you need to read the two sentences again!

Also, you said to Rosabud -

"You are just coming across as someone who is trying to be clever now."

Having read the whole thread, I can categorically state that Rosabud comes across as being CONSIDERABLY cleverer than you. I also think you lost the argument when you finally reacted to the question (after being asked a few times) about what you would do if you discovered your own daughter was a lap dancer. I think any credibility you MIGHT have still had (I'm being kind there) was definitely lost then.

You know, daddancer, I can see how your life must be so busy, what with fitting all the demands of family life round all your lovely trips out to titty bars.

Out of interest, how does your wife/partner feel about you going to them?

Apparently she goes with him, TheOriginalLadyFT. She, like TittyDancer, probably also thinks 'If you can't beat them, join them'.

Or perhaps she just likes seeing men paying £20 to have someone's breasts mashed in their faces. Who knows

Seenenough, I genuinely laughed at Daddancer's hysterical outburst at the 'hypothetical daughter' question.

It really did tell me all I need to know about his attitudes - which range from aggression towards people who speak out against lap dancing clubs to burying his head in the sand.

Has anyone here read Jennifer Hayashi Danns' book ?

I'm reading some interviews with her ( my soul fell out the first time I took my knickers off ) and despite articulating all the negatives mentioned on this thread she is against banning clubs but gives little information as to why... can anyone explain ?

You'd have to ask her, GetAll.

I assume it's in her book. Simply asking if anyone has read it as I don't have her phone number to hand.

"My soul fell out the first time I took my knickers off" is such a sad, sad quote. :(

It is indeed. And she's pretty scathing about the industry, her book was written in collaboration with OBJECT but she's against banning.

Given the nature of this thread I think it's a worth exploring why.

Perhaps I should just buy her book.

There you go GetAll.

Sitting at a kitchen table in the cozy London flat, the 27-year-old insists she is not calling for a ban, because it would not challenge the underlying sexist culture that allows them to flourish. But she does want to explode some myths. In her strong Liverpool accent she says: ?People think it?s charming and cheeky ? men chasing topless girls around like in a Carry On film.? Instead, she says, there is a ruthless competition ? with women resorting to masturbating for the customers or ignoring no-touching rules to earn enough to pay the fees. Others tell of security staff and managers turning a blind eye to men groping, insulting or even threatening the women.

Looks like she's in agreement with a lot of us on this thread who want to tackle the demand for these clubs, and the sexist culture in which they exist.

Yes I saw that quote elsewhere , but it was quite brief, I'd like to see her expand on that.

It's clear that she's in agreement with people on anti side of this thread about the damage, but she obviously differs on the issue of banning.

I've said I agree to a degree about the negative effects caused by LDCs, but I feel uncomfortable with the whole scale banning of them, hence wanting to hear her expand on that a bit.

Like I said I should probably buy her book, I was just curious as to whether anyone here had already read it.

Perhaps she wants to keep the wankers front and centre where there's at least a semblance of control and monitoring

I would guess that it's similar to the line Lucy Holmes is taking against page 3. She's insists she's not calling for a ban either - but would clearly like the Sun to do what, she thinks, is the decent thing and stop printing pics of bare boobs in a 'news' paper.

And here's a quote from the article for Daddancer:

" Naively, she believed the dancing would be fun, glamorous and she would be able to pick her customers, which was not true. ?Sometimes I was really repulsed because they had been drinking so heavily, but also it was age. When it was for someone 45 and above I would have in the back of my head ?you probably have a daughter.? I would make a moral judgement on them, but I would still dance for them. And I think this can be psychologically damaging because it becomes a question of what you will do for money.? "

(My emphasis)

Although I expect he'll just put his fingers in his ears and go la la la again.

If we're quoting her, I did hold off quoting this...

' It is becoming increasingly difficult to solely blame the patriarchy; women must take responsibility for their actions too. '

Well, it's her opinion - and if anyone's entitled to their opinion, she is. But it's not one I share.

GATT can you link to these interviews if you want to discuss them?

Sorry, there seems to be a kind of generic interview ( running has already linked to one )

Another is here

Well, it's her opinion - and if anyone's entitled to their opinion, she is. But it's not one I share

Oh I agree. It's just interesting in the context of this thread that she has views that mirror your opinions and at the same time has opinions that mirror some of mine.

Perhaps we should invite her on here as a mediator :o

Again, GetAll - I would point out that there is a difference between holding women 'responsible' for their part in consciously choosing to dance in LDCs and condemning them for it.

Taken in the context of a highly sexist and sexualised culture, I just cannot bring myself to condemn these women.

This is very interesting though - taken from the interview GetAll linked to:

What lap dancing showed me was the ugly side of human behaviour, regardless of sex or gender. I have observed both women and men behaving like animals. This is what the sex industry can draw out of us all if we are not careful. It appeals to our base nature, that side of us that without monitoring can make us uncivilised. Our responsibility as human beings is to aspire for more and create a greater society than the one we first entered. I feel that I completely failed in this. I was drawn to lap dancing for my own personal gain, without a care in the world about the effect on anyone else, I didn?t care about the men and if this was healthy for them, or how hurt their wives or partners could be. I didn?t even care about myself.

It's saddening, and it sounds like she regrets and blames herself for her part in the lap dancing industry.

Should add, I, myself, don't 'blame' her for her part in it. I blame and condemn the people that open these clubs and the people who go to them.