Dear rape apologists and whiners: I've done all the Bad Things. Repeatedly. It's never thevictim's fault.

[solidgoldbrass]

I haven't been raped.This is because lots of men are not rapists, and don't immediately rape women who are drunk, wearing short skirts or out after dark without an owner. If you think that any of the above things, or being asleep in a bed near a man, or even having some willing sexual activity with a man and then saying actually no, stop, means it's OK for the man to just go ahead and fuck till he spunks...Would your son do that? Your husband, your best mate, your brother? Do you really think that all the men you know are potential rapists?

Night!

FFS narked... Pathetic.

Eclectic
Was that addressed to me?

I don't think that calling someone a 'rape apologist' is appropriate, and the snarky comments about RF free board being all hunkydory are really not helpful.

Can we try to have a sensible discussion about this without these kind of comments? Perhaps then people will actually want to post on FWR.

I don't feel the need to apologise ES.

Oh look another fight.

And people decide to bring up Dittany and Radfems and whatever.

You lot really are all pretty unbelievable.

Get over it already. Both sides.

Eternal, my post at 21:53 was directed at you. I have nothing really left to say on this thread.

What does it mean if we say 'only rapists rape'? Does it mean that not all men will rape, even if they know they could get away with it. I agree entirely. Or does it mean you are, in a sense, a 'born rapist' just waiting for an opportunity? I disagree.

Yes, rapist are rapists. Of course.

But there are still a hell of a lot of people who don't even know about the clear consent issue, who still, if they are pissed, and the woman is pissed, might have sex without clear consent. We call that rape, they call it "Oh shit, can you remember what happened? I can't."

If you consider pissed-up not definitely consent-asked for and given sex rape, don't get so pissed-up and get into bed with someone naked.

Protect yourself until we introduce signed consent forms that remove all possibility of doubt.

Oh. Whenever I come to any bloody feminism thread I seem to wander into a long running fight.

I only popped in as I saw this thread in active conversations thought I'd see how things were going in your new improved section.

I'll leave you to it.

That's my point hully, not sure why it comes across so different when I post it.

Or another thing:

I know about rohypnol so would not leave a drink unattended on a bar in a busy club.

If I did, and got rohypnoled and assaulted/raped, it would be absolutely the rapist's fault, but if I thought there was anything I could do to avoid that situation, ie not leave a drink unattended, then I would.

I never thought that rad-FEMS were the problem around here actually.

I think I have probably tipped over from liberal feminism to radical feminism myself actually - if radical feminism means a belief in the patriarchy and an understanding of the way that it affects women.

I think that the problems were much more personal than political and to keep dragging it over every single fucking thread is tedious in the extreme.

This thread is THIS THREAD. I'm arguing the point that rapists rape, not good decent men who take a chance because I'm wearing a short skirt - if you want to argue against my premise, go for it, please don't debase this argument/debate by dragging up old arguments which are personal. Not political.

Eclectic
I am sorry if you feel I was getting at you. I actually started by trying to defend you from the rape apologist comments, but got distracted and snarky. Sorry about that.

If you are saying that there are some rapes that fall into the category of 'preventable', then I am afraid you are missing a huge point.

You could do all the right things, never go out at night alone, or drink too much, or wear a short skirt ... and still be raped.

The risk starts anew every single time we leave the house. Or don't, because even at home women are not safe from rape.

I fear that if we tell our girls that they can stay safe, we give the impression that there is a way of preventing rape and there simply isn't.

I agree with you SK.

Good luck.

Eternal, why do you think there is no way of preventing rape?

Because until all men are educated and socialised not to put rohypnol in someone's drink, I'd rather not be the one drinking it.

Er.

X posted.

Anyway - no I still disagree actually. You could do the dance of the seven veils pissed as a fart, start having sex and then say NO and a normal man would stop.

Why are we denying this and talking about rohypnol and shit? Any bastard that puts rohypnol in my drink is a rapist.

What the fuck?

TBF it makes me uncomfortable even how Hully posted it...even in that kind of fuzzy nice way it says something I'm not sure about.

Because what if, as I mentioned earlier, you ARE pissed. You DO invite him in. You DO snog. You DON'T want to have sex and you say NO.

What if, the next day, he comes out with all the 'informed consent' line? If he acted as if he didn't remember because he was a bit pissed?

Oh no! I was totally with you hullygully till the part where it sounded like you were saying if you get drunk & naked you're asking to be raped, which is I'm sure not what you meant?

Denying what?

I'm not denying anything. I am saying that rapists are rapists. People that put rohypnol in drinks are rapists. I would not leave my drink unattended because i don't want rohypnol in it.

Would you leave yours unattended because it wouldn't be your fault? What sort of consolation would that be?

I am saying that there ARE things I will tell my dd not to do. To protect herself as far as is practicable. if that makes me an apologist - fine.

I dont like going out alone after dark.
I dont like DCs going out alone after dark.
I dont even like DH going out alone after dark.

I understand all the statistics, but I still dont like the above.

It's up to any bloke to be absolutely CERTAIN he has consent, otherwise it's rape. And if she's so drunk you cant tell whether she's consenting? Then it's rape.

I don't understand why a signed contract would solve the problem of rapists.

women can change their minds and if men ignore that they have changed their mind and rape them anyway because they have a signature, then those men are rapists.

That's basic feminist position, FWIW