Dear rape apologists and whiners: I've done all the Bad Things. Repeatedly. It's never thevictim's fault.

[solidgoldbrass]

I haven't been raped.This is because lots of men are not rapists, and don't immediately rape women who are drunk, wearing short skirts or out after dark without an owner. If you think that any of the above things, or being asleep in a bed near a man, or even having some willing sexual activity with a man and then saying actually no, stop, means it's OK for the man to just go ahead and fuck till he spunks...Would your son do that? Your husband, your best mate, your brother? Do you really think that all the men you know are potential rapists?

I've been raped by my ex boyfriend, more than once. He was then reported for rape, domestic violence, psychological and emotional abuse.

In my life, I've been going home at 4 am by myself, been typsy, been dancing half naked and I've never been sexually assaulted or raped until my ex decided to do it, when I was already 39, I wasn't drunk and I wasn't even scantily dressed.

All the rape myths are TOTAL BOLLOCKS.

"I just don't think we can stress that enough really because a lot of women (and men) seem to believe that if women do anything risky, it will turn otherwise normal men into rapists. When in fact, those men were rapists in the first place, they just hadn't had the opportunity to rape that particular woman up to that point."

That is not my view. Non rapists do not become rapists because of the women behave. However, certain behaviour that makes you an easy target, like walking home drunk alone, do invite any potential rapists you may come across. Just like it would invite any potential thieves you may come across.

I read something (miht have been a blog, might have been on here) a while ago; a (hypothetical) story about a young man who got acquaintance-mugged - he lent a little money to an acquaintance on a night out, and the acquaintance later decided that this wasn't enough money, and took a lot more off him. And how people said, but you lent him a bit of money in the first place. And you were drunk. And you have plenty of money to spare, and you shouldn't have been so silly...

just out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if there are there any other public safety campaigns that focus pretty much exclusively on the least likely scenario whilst completely failing to talk about/intentionally silencing talk about the scenarios which are overwhelmingly more likely to occur?

i wonder why that might be. it just seems so bass ackward, as we say back home

"does anyone happen to know if there are there any other public safety campaigns that focus pretty much exclusively on the least likely scenario whilst completely failing to talk about/intentionally silencing talk about the scenarios which are overwhelmingly more likely to occur?"

Well no, but I don't think it's possible to have that chibi. The more likely scenario to occur in rape cases... that would be like advising people in a relationship that they could likely be abused and raped by the partners or someone they know anyway, because that represents the majority of cases. But that would be like saying that anyone can be a rapist and that's not acceptable.

I think it could be useful to have a campaign that busts few rape myths and informs people correctly about rape and DV issues.

Fastidia - I remember a MNer who actually came onto a thread to say that exactly that had happened to her daughter. She was raped by a stranger who then claimed that she'd suggested sex to him, in the street, and that she "liked it rough". And he was believed (either by the police or CPS or a jury, I can't remember now sorry) and got away with it. Because people seem to want to believe anything, anything that will disguise the fact that YES there are a lot of rapists around and YES they look like normal men and don't wear a big cloak with an R on it.

Actually, Merlin, I think it would be really useful to focus on domestic abuse; not as in 'your partner could be a rapist!' but 'these behaviours are abusive, and abuse can manifest in several ways (emotional/sexual/financial, etc). Someone who is abusive in one of these ways is more likely to start abusing you in one of the other ways too'.

In fact I think I might start raising this issue every time someone starts going on about short skirts and dark alleys.

With regards to the OP. I've been raped by two different men.

The first time I was raped, I was 16, wearing jeans and a hoodie, and round my mum's friend's house, because my mother thought it'd be safer than leaving myself and my brother home alone. I'd been a virgin. He proceeded to coerce me into an affair with him. It took me ten years to remember the initial rape.

The second time, I was 20 - 24, and it happened repeatedly. I was in an abusive relationship, and ended up with a son as a result.

I was sexually assaulted a further two times. The first time, I was 19, and working in a pub. A friend offered me a lift home, and then used that excuse to try and grope me, and to try and force me to perform sexual acts on him.

The second time, I was 22, working in a different pub, and groped by a customer.

Following the first rape and the first sexual assault, I began "taking risks", as the Rape Apologia would have me believe. I used to walk home, a mile and a half walk, at midnight. I didn't get raped, even when I was walking home alone in a big city. I began wearing short skirts - I didn't get raped then. I'd get pissed out of my face, and I still didn't get raped then.

Instead, I got raped by two seperate men, whilst at home, and wearing my standard attire, and at a time I didn't drink. This is why the "Do x,y and z to protect yourself from rape" emails I get every now and then from my well meaning father piss me off. I did all of those things, and still got raped

The only thing that will cause you to be raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Stop blaming the "actions" of the women.

StewieGriffithsMom,
"I think you will find that MN is currently running such a campaign." I meant a campaign on a wider scale. The "WE believe you" campaign, despite it attracted attention but it didn't go further few papers and online. I mean something directed to ordinary people all over the place, including GP practices.

@MildewMayhew, that's horrible!! big hug I was in an abusive relationship too and thank God I didn't have any children out of it.
As regards the "stop blaming the actions of women", I wonder when that will end... I believe a huge percentage rate of people still blame rape or DV on women.

@MooncupGoddess, I agree with what you said in your post but if you go around petitioning to make people aware about rape and DV issues, you'll see what the most common reactions are. I know because I've done it and still do it. People treat the topic as dirty and "uninfluential" in their lives because they think they won't ever be touched by rape or DV in their lives. And that's because of rape and DV myths, they think such a thing can happen to people involved with criminals (such as DV) or if you get drunk, go home late and you're barely dressed (concerning rape).

I'm sure you're right about people's reactions, Merlin, but that's exactly why it needs to be done!

I'd hope it's soon, Merlin.

I linked a report of a woman murdered by her ex, on the Feminist Activism section last night. The case has focused on her actions on social media sites.

This report has some depressing stats on the percentage of people who blame the victim (partially or fully) in rape, based on set scenarios. Over 56% of London people interviewed believed that a woman should take some responsibility for being raped in certain scenarios. :(

What happened to putting the blame where it belongs?; On the shoulders of the rapist

@MooncupGoddess, first... how is it possible to do it? Beyond a certain point... you can't.
If you're not a rape survivor and you go around campaigning... people will shrug their shoulders off like they're not interested in hearing anything, no more or less what would happen if you were trying to convert them to another religion.

If you're a rape survivor, it depends on... what happened to you. If your rapist wasn't convicted, you can't name anyone and you can't talk about anyone involved, including the police. That would get you a lawsuit for slander or worse. 90% of rape survivors who reported found themselves in this situation, they're just part of the statistics and they're forced to stay invisible (this meaning if they'd like to speak out - not that they'll be forced to do it, of course).
I wish there was a solution but it seems like the justice system and the ordinary people are more concerned about protecting the rapists than the victims.
I know it sounds like a vicious circle... well it is. I've been even trtying to have people signing petitions through my FB and twitter accounts... only one of my friends on FB signed it. Many don't even want to be involved in that.

@MildewMayhew, I know... it's so sad!! :(
Unfortunately, I've been battling against that for months now and nothing changed, if possible... it even got worse :(

I think just talking about it helps, Merlin. Not necessarily in a campaigning way, which I agree can turn people off one-to-one (though campaigns like MN's We Believe You are fantastic). But just putting forward one's point of view if it comes up in conversation. Most MNers are parents and there are many teachers too - I've read some great examples on here of how posters discuss these issues with children and young people.

Remember, fifty years ago most people would have been horrified by the suggestion that gay people were perfectly normal and in no way a social problem. Now our culture has (on the whole) a much more tolerant attitude, and much of that is the result of ideas spreading from person to person. It's how change happens.

MooncupGoddess, I agree with you. Although, as you imply in your post.. I don't think that change will happen in a short time, if many people don't start to campaign all together.
Campaign like MN's We Believe you are fantastic but...they should be endorsed everywhere. Instead, I posted the link to the MN's campaign on twitter and Facebook and few were interested in understanding what that was about. I've posted a huge number of articles about abuse and rape on my blog, I had very few visitors. I posted one about Facebook and Social medias and got 1000 visitors in few days. This concerns a blog that is rarely read by anyone!

Have a look at the link MildewMayhew posted, you can see how big the prejudice against raped women still is. And the report is referring to London, so it must include ordinary people who got used to the most incredible situations... the percentage rate of people living in rural areas and blaming a rape on the victim is a lot higher.

Surely, we should start somewhere. The point is... where?

Anyone up for an active campaign? I'm not sure how we'd go about it, but we need to get the voices out there, somehow.

MildewMayhew, if you have any idea about a campaign, feel free to post a new thread :)

I have a daughter who is only a toddler and I wonder what I'm going to say to her- if anything, about avoiding making herself the victim of the crime of rape. It is tricky one because I unfortunately cannot simply point to a stereotypical rapist and say, 'avoid him, he's bad news'. iME it would mean a denial of freedom as a person to make your own choices in life- just in case. Are there opportune rapists? I don't believe this. Rapists are predatory and select their victims. I think it is a very much a thought out process. It lessens it as a crime and only serves to reinforce the views held amongst the general public that there were.things the victim could've done well to avoid being a victim of this crime and by implication that in not doing these things were partly responsible for the crime committed against them. This is humiliating for the victim of the rape, the humiliation IMO discourages repiorting the crime as you're left with doubts as to whether any crime has occurred, what with you being so responsible??

I was raped by a colleague at a Christmas Party. Apologists would definitely say he was opportunist but having thought about it (quite a lot), he was predatory in his approach with it culminating in the rape. I really don't think it hadn't crossed his mind until a drunk work colleague was left with him alone!

The office party was in a hotel where he happened to be staying as we lived too far away from the office to use any kind of public transport that would allow us to get home after the Christmas party had finished. A taxi was going to be as much as a hotel stay so the colleague booked a room, I was quite junior in my role so had less cash and had arranged to stay the night at a friends in the town.

Anyway, the party was in the hotel lounge, bar and afterwards a group of us- men and women went to this man's room so that we could carry on drinking beyond 11 in those days. People started to leave his room to go home and my friend and I were left with him. My friend had a very demanding, abusive boyfriend who kept ringing her to check on her all night. In the end he said was outside the hotel and demanded she come out and see him. She told me to wait with the colleague in his hotel room whilst she went and sorted out things with her boyfriend, yes, I was quite drunk by then but I didn't have much choose but to stay put. I didn't feel anxious, scared about this as we were friends and he got married 2 weeks prior to the party. The colleague offered me another drink which I accepted but I didn't think I was making myself vulnerable at all as he was a friend, we were playing cards and I new my friend was coming back as I was staying at her house for the night.

My friend didn't come back, I was going to walk back to hers but the colleague persuaded me to wait a bit longer for her as I didn't know if they were having a full blown argument. I was drunk, it was cold so u stayed put- big mistake. The next thing I know I wake up with this man on top of me, with me saying, 'no' very clearly but it did not stop.

I handed my notice in at work but the weeks of notice where like a living hell. The rapist didn't tell anyone that we had sex but funnily enough when previously he would come into my office all the time, after the rape he came in once on the day that I was leaving and gave me a bunch of flowers and a bottle of wine. This looked odd and I was repulsed. The girl I was meant to have stayed with for the night of the Christmas party definitely suspected something was up as she kept asking me if I was ok. She asked if he'd tried it on with me as she had seen him put condoms into his wallet from his desk draw prior to the Fhristmas party starting. She worked alongside him and thought it was odd because he was not returning home to his wife that night.

I was drunk and so in some peoples' eyes was an opportunist rapist's dream victim but I have been drunk with my current Partner, when I first got to know him in his room in a shared house and he didn't go near me for weeks, not even a kiss. The behaviour of my ex colleague was predatory. He'd thought about his plan for months i think. He befriended me, made me relaxed around him and so when the group dispersed the night if the Christmas party and my friend told me she'd come back for me after she had argued with her boyfriend, I did not think I'd be at risk!

I will be telling my children to take precautions when they are out, but also teaching them about healthy relationships and what they involve - and what they definitely do NOT involve.

We have to, as responsible parents, help our children to stay safe with whatever advice we can think of.

But we shouldn't HAVE to. And that is the sad thing.

In an ideal world, we would be able to let our children on the streets at midnight to play.
In an ideal world we would be able to get as drunk as we like and in an ideal world we should most certainly be able to put our drinks on a bloody bar!

Bu it is sadly an imperfect world - with rapists in it and we have to get through as best we can.
It's not fair and it's not right.
But it is.

Fastidia I love your posts and I am learning a lot. Thank you.

Goldenbear and Gin I am very sorry to hear what happened to you.

I have paid for self defence classes for my DCs in their teens and told them I will believe them if they ever report a rape.

There was a thread here on MN recently (in the last week in fact) where a MNer finally worked up the courage to seek counselling about a rape she had suffered a few years ago. She also plucked up the courage to tell her partner of 5 years. He flipped and got angry with her and basically told her to have a nice life.

Many posters felt his reaction was completely understandable

I saw that thread Math. It was disturbing.

Math, I missed that thread. Bloody glad I did. :(