Dear rape apologists and whiners: I've done all the Bad Things. Repeatedly. It's never thevictim's fault.

[solidgoldbrass]

I haven't been raped.This is because lots of men are not rapists, and don't immediately rape women who are drunk, wearing short skirts or out after dark without an owner. If you think that any of the above things, or being asleep in a bed near a man, or even having some willing sexual activity with a man and then saying actually no, stop, means it's OK for the man to just go ahead and fuck till he spunks...Would your son do that? Your husband, your best mate, your brother? Do you really think that all the men you know are potential rapists?

Totally agree with that, fastidia, just wanted to say that I don't see anything wrong with say, asking your daughter to get a cab with a friend rather than walk home alone late at night, if it makes you feel like you might be protecting her even a little bit. And if martial arts makes a rape victim feel even marginally less vulnerable in the future, I think that's probably a good thing.

So don't bother locking your doors at night as people shouldnt commit burglary and if they do, well you'll have to deal with the consequences but it wasn't your fault. How helpful.

Oh ffs.

Of COURSE it's not the victims fault!! That's exactly what I said, I'm pretty sure we're all agreed on that. And I completely agree that the whole focus of rape discussions needs to shift from the actions of the victim, and that short skirts have nothing to do with anything. I just meant to say that it doesn't necessarily mean you have to accept that rape is inevitable and just cross your fingers it doesn't happen.

I'm sorted that I have a differing opinion but no need to be so rude.

And I really must stress again that in no way whatsoever do I think it is always appropriate to fight back or that it is ever the victims fault if she doesn't manage to overcome her attacker
Actually, to open up a bit more, I have also been raped, a long time ago and I did not fight back or do anything really, other than 'freeze' and not know what to do. I've never blamed myself or felt responsible for that and nor should anyone else (hugs to you all). But somewhat bizarrely perhaps it does fuel my desire for women to feel empowered to fight if they feel it to be appropriate to the situation. Sometimes it is better and safer not to fight back and sometimes it will help but women don't know what to do and how to do it most effectively

Sorry I can't form a reasonable answer to that. Think I will fuck off actually.

Sorry, not sorted.

To be fair this sort of argument happened before the boards were split. I'm confused at the "oh everything was better before" angle.

Why does everthing have to be so polarised? Why can we not discuss our own experiences of rape?

Isn't it everything, all at once?

1. Rape = the rapist's fault. The end.

1. Not all men are determined, planned ahead rapists, some are opportunists, some believe a pissed-up woman not saying "no" doesn't count. This is societal and needs changing.

1. Until it is changed, it makes sense to protect oneself from opportunism a la the burglary analogy.

1. Martial arts or a weapon might help. Good.

Fighting here doesn't advance anythign a jot.

Abody fwiw I think we are in agreement.

Eclectic, I cannot get my head around your burglar analogy. It's quite odd tbh, and for some reason I found it quite upsetting.

Yes hully! Yes :)

Rape is rape ES. Your experience of it is not the same as someone else's.

There is no polarised thought really. If you're raped that is because you met a rapist and were raped. All of the the advice on how to stay safe, all of the language about degrees of rape, all of the excuses and reasons that a rapist had to rape are bullshit.

And that's true if you're a feminist or not.

I'm sorry you are upset gin, not my intention.

Hmm rather big step for me that! Mumsnet is like therapy lol

Anyway, back to the topic perhaps. I often think about countries where rape is commonplace. In south africa I think they run workshops with men to talk thro scenarios and how in fact they would be rape. There is a lot of work that could be done in this country with young teens and young men imo around issues of consent.

Hmm rather big step for me that! Mumsnet is like therapy lol

Anyway, back to the topic perhaps. I often think about countries where rape is commonplace. In south africa I think they run workshops with men to talk thro scenarios and how in fact they would be rape. There is a lot of work that could be done in this country with young teens and young men imo around issues of consent.

I think that we have to be careful when calling someone a 'rape apologist', and instead think about the way in which we have been conditioned by society and the press to think that women could prevent rape.

Almost every article about a rape includes some mention of what the woman did 'wrong'. Short skirt, dark alley, too much alcohol.

And I do see what Eclectic is getting at.

If we say around 85% of women knew the person who raped them then that leaves 15% of rapes by strangers (not sure if these are the exact figures, but I think it is something like this)

So what I think Eclectic means (and do correct me if I am wrong) is: should we be looking at these 15% of rapes and considering ways in which they could be avoided.

The problem with this is that not all of these 15% of rapes were at night/when the woman had been drinking/wearing a short skirt. And even if they were, millions of women go out at night, have a drink and/or wear a short skirt.

Can we (should we) really tell millions of women to cover up, stay home and not get drunk because of the tiny 'risk' that they could get raped?

We might as well all just go and live in Saudi Arabia. Oh. But wait. Women get raped there too.

Damn. Flaw in your plan, Eclectic. Back to the drawing board.

No, sorry Hully but that's wrong.

Rapists rape. Would your husband or father rape a woman because the opportunity arose?

No.

Rapists are rapists.

I haven't disagreed. You are not listening and are choosing to polarise opinion. Very common on this board unfortunately. Night all.

That's not what I said and I'm not saying anymore, no point. If you want clarification re read my posts.