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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

631 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:25

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

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scottishmummy · 07/05/2012 22:20

there is considerable robust research on trans, sound peer reviewed empirical research
you need to widen your knowledge base

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 22:21

Nothingold, disability is not just a socially constructed phenomenon? Seriously, what planet are you in. I am gobsmacked by the ignorance on this thread. Not just that, the fact you are arguing and peddling fascism in the name of equality. Seriously disturbed by your viewpoints.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 22:23

Psychiatrists have to ensure that the transgender person is not feeling this way due to societal influences or mental illness. The assessment process is lengthy and in depth and necessary for gender realignment to be undertaken by the NHS. To date this has been the only way of "diagnosing" transgender, however new evidence is coming to light using MRI scans that will improve the treatment of transgender in the future.

scottishmummy · 07/05/2012 22:24

yes a psych assessment is required prior to nhs funded surgery

ThatGhastlyWoman · 07/05/2012 22:25

Okay, here is something for you to read, nyac. One transgender woman's experience of surgery going wrong, plus insight into potential problems with post surgical healthcare.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:30

The research I have read into Trans and for example MtoF having "female brains" has been shown not to be correct. For example 1 piece of research that gets quoted over and over again on autopsies of Transexuals - later research showed that changes had happened in the brain when these individuals were older than 22 years of age and were more likely the result of hormone therapy.

Psych assessment is carried out to ensure that the individual really does feel that way and they are not mentally ill. But this is of course a subjective judgement. There are individuals who regret surgery and some have surgery to take their body back to the original sex. This shows that it is a subjective judgement, as any psychiatric assessment is.

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nothingoldcanstay · 07/05/2012 22:33

ecclesvet - just disagreed that determining sex is as simple as looking for a penis or vagina. Even XX or XY is not nuanced enough

So what are trans gender people doing then? If there is no actual gender it is all a social construction. Surely dysphoria or whatever you said it was is therefore totally based on what you feel the opposite sex is. I don't think a label really helps though.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 22:33

Much of the current research is going on in the brains of babies and children. Before hormone therapy is undertaken.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:36

Dione - But how do you know if they are transexual as babies or children?

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EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 22:37

And your point is? They must be wrong to believe they could be another sex as it is not biologically proven? Like how the earth was flat until we found out it was round? Close mindedness at it best.

do you know what is really interesting...not once have you asked a question or risen to the accusations of being close minded or fascist...

But you won't will you... Because you believe you are right and you have no intention of opening your mind to other possibilities that don't conform with your viewpoint.

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 22:40

I apologise, you asked a question Blush

nothingoldcanstay · 07/05/2012 22:40

Actually disability is a construction - see left handedness or homosexuality or even being a woman 500 yeas ago- all seen as disabilities. The language changed from "handicap" to become "disability" and now is becoming a "condition" for this exact reason. If you put a prescriptive label on people you limit them when perhaps it's other people that need to see things differently.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:44

I am not here to throw personal insults like being close minded or fascist, which is why I have ignored these. I am here to debate an issue.

And I have asked questions - like what does being in the wrong body mean?

The post about research was in direct response to a poster saying there is research to prove transexual people are born in the wrong body. I posted back to say effectively there is not.

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DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 22:44

Look for the studies Eats. I think there was one recently in New Scientist. Early identification is desirable as transgender children can have puberty postponed while more exploration takes place.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:45

No problem eclectic Grin

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WonderDandelion · 07/05/2012 22:47

It's hard for 'normal' people to understand because it's counterintuitive for those internal and external maps not to match, not because "privileged people can't see their privilege". I do take account of privilege as an issue, but I think it has limitations as an explanation and sometimes gets thrown around more as an accusation - telling people that they are somehow at fault for being "privileged", when often all they are is innocently unaware of the layers and complexities of an issue that looks simple from the outside.

Personally I'm highly persuaded by the idea that external parts of bodies can be mismatched with parts that are equally physical in location, but not manifested physically only in thought (so body and mind don't match). There's still a lot we don't know about neurodevelopment, so asserting that only external physical signs matter and minds can't have anything correlated to physical sex doesn't make sense to me.

On the other hand, there's a hell of a lot of culture going on too and I don't believe that the 'mind' part of physical sex, if it's there, is correlated with lipstick and shoes and demureness and weakness and all the rest of the crap that people stereotype women as being like - which I think is 99% memes. So while I can believe that someone has a body/mind mismatch that has a biological cause and not just a cultural cause, as a feminist I wouldn't be at all comfortable with the idea that this mismatch was quantified for MTF transgender people in terms of how much they like, say, lipstick and dresses (because that would be measuring it only in terms of cultural constructs of femininity). But afaik that is not how someone's 'transgenderedness' is assessed when it comes to real life and people who have real gender reassignment, so that's OK.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:48

Dione - Thanks I will have a read of this. I do know though that the majority of children diagnosed with dysphoria do not go on to become transexuals as young adults. But I will read the article

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EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 22:48

Anyways, thought provoking thread. Think I'll leave it there. Hope you find an answer that enables you to see transgender as compatible with your feminist beliefs.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:50

Thanks for the discussion eclectic.

I don't think people thinking they are born in the wrong body is incompatible with feminism. I think believing they are right is incompatible.

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:54

wonderdandelion - If it was simply that the internal mental map didn't fit with the body we would be talking about physical body parts like penis (don't know what the plural is?) and breasts. But most transexuals don't have genital surgery. So if it was simply matching up the two maps, surely having the surgery would be the key thing you would want?

And MtoF surgery has good outcomes now. FtoM surgery is far less successful. So why wouldn't all MtoF have surgery to make their maps match up if this was the case?

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 22:57

OLKN - I will read them and have a think about them. I know from reading other research that you usually have to go back to the original to assess whether it has any validity or not, so I will try and do this if possible

Sorry I won't automatically take the article as proof without delving further. I still remember new scientists articles proclaiming for example the discovery of the gay gene, that was rapidly shown to be research that did not prove what it claimed to prove. But if I am wrong and there is biological proof, I will say I am wrong

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DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 22:58

Eats do you know where I can find that study?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 07/05/2012 22:59

I only searched NS because Dione suggested it earlier. I'm sure there are other sources of information.