Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

The one about young transgenders not seeking re-assignment in adulthood?

Not the core issue on this thread, but I'd like to know what on earth a 'female brain' is. As far as I'm aware (and I may well have missed something), there aren't glaring differences between the brains of men and women, except that men tend to be a bit bigger - same as the tendency to have bigger bodies (but there's always huge variation between individuals) - and women tend to have more connections between the two halves of the brain.

So what is this 'female brain' idea? I'm sure I've been told by passing neurosurgeons it's all far less obvious and straightforward than the authors of cod-psychology self-help books would like us to think. But I could well be vastly over-simplifying.

You're not going to find any paper that talks of "proof" in this context. It's not Maths. Nor does New Scientist claim that it proves anything.

Dione - Sorry I don't. I think I read it on info about evaluations done at the gender dysphoria clinic in London. Is it called Anthony something? Maybe Hopkins?

edam, females tend to have more white matter and less grey matter - i.e. less mass, but more connections.

Here is the first study reported in NS.

Edam the link below talks about the research on the idea of a female brain.

biologicaltheoriestrans.wordpress.com/

I don't know, because I don't know enough about the surgery. Do good outcomes include just as many orgasms as before? Maybe some people have a 'what's done is done' attitude and find some elements of mismatching easier to live with longterm than others.

If you accept as a valid premise at least the possibility of a mismatch of biological origin (due to neurodevelopmental glitches, missing or wrong hormones at certain stages of brain development, whatever), then for me that means accepting that people can be justified in making physical changes and social changes in how they live their life, if that's what they feel is right, without that being opposed to feminism.

A corollory of that is that they also have to be entitled to make only part of the physical changes - whatever they feel comfortable with. Bodily autonomy and all that...

I haven't been able to find those stats. I have found some stats regarding gender dysphoria and transgendered people. But I have found many more regarding discrimination against transgenders.

This is an incredibly interesting thread. As a man who has only studied a little psychology, a lot of this new to me, so thanks to all the posters for some very interesting material.

I saw the 'fascist' reference before, and whereas I could see where the comment was coming from, it's a sensitive word to use in a lot of circumstances. I would characterise some of the posts as 'strident' rather than anything else. It is interesting that some people will adapt/discredit science to fit a political dogma, rather than the other way round.

Glad you find it interesting. I think people have been in the main polite for what is an often emotive topic.

Dione - i will see tomorrow if I can find those stats. Yes transgender people experience a lot of violence and abuse and obviously this is very wrong.

Wonderdandelion - Just thinking out loud here. But if you take the internal and external map idea. If transexualism was because of that, and for practical reasons individuals did not want surgery so the two maps coincided - then why would you do anything else? Why someone with a male body who is keeping his penis, then try to live "like a woman" and pass as a woman? Surely if you didn't have surgery you wouldn't do anything.

With MtoF surgery the penis is turned inside out to create genitals so that the sensitive nerve endings are there and the prostrate is retained, so orgasms are still possible. Have no idea if they are as good though as before. With FtoM it is only by keeping the clitoris that the individual can still have orgasms - unless there have been developments in surgery I don't know about

In terms of the science - what often happens is a scientist publishes some research. Peers read this and publish their own research either validating the original research or showing it to be wrong. New research gets published showing either validating or disproving the original research.

The link I posted to was a blog that summarises the research about the female brain in MtoF transexuals and talks about hwo subsequent research showed that the conclusions of the initial research was wrong.

Also at times, so much research demonstrates the validity of a theory that it becomes an accepted fact.

I don't see what this mental model thing has got to do with transgender; it seems to be based on a misunderstanding that transgender people want to change their bodies to look like a different kind of body that they have a mental model of. This is not the case.

Most transgender people do not want to change their body. Most transgender people feel that they are one gender and that their body, regardless of what it looks like, is their chosen gender as it looks without modification.

Obviously there are some transgender people who want to have surgery to modify their appearance, but there are also many people who are not transgender who have surgery to modify their appearance. To try and associate transgender people particularly with surgery and psychiatric treatment is just stereotyping.

Transgender is simply a feeling of internal gender identity. It says nothing whatsoever about how people feel about their body. That varies by individual, as it does for people who are not transgender. I respect people's rights to their feelings, as I respect the rights of Muslims, Christians etc to their belief in their feelings about God, even though I don't share them.

But as we live in a society which does expect people to declare if they are either male or female, in a way that we don't make people choose if they are either Muslim or Christian, then if we are dividing people up based on this internal identity rather than on feelings or realities about the external body, then I think we need some basic description of what this feeling is. I only need to know enough about Christianity to treat a Christian person with respect, because nobody is asking me to call myself a Christian. I do need to know what the internal gender identity of men and women feels like, because I am being asked to declare if I share those feelings and if I belong to one of those groups. And perhaps more importantly, I have to raise my children as if they belong to or the other of those groups, so I need an explanation of these gender identities so I can respond to them.

It isn't somehow liberal or lacking in prejudice to say you will treat transgender people as their preferred gender identity if nobody has an understanding of what those gender identities consist of. It is just giving some superficial agreement to a concept without really following through. Rather like saying you don't discriminate against Muslims but then offering them pork all the time and being surprised they pray to a supernatural being because you have no understanding of what Muslims think or feel.

Seahorses - I need to go to bed so I will respond to your post tomorrow.

Just wanted to post the link I found for an NHS site which says that 75-80% of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, no longer have this after puberty. This isn't the research I read about before, but it seems to make essentially the same point.

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx

"TGW - Of course transexual people and men can be raped. Of course they should get support. But surely you can see that some women who have been raped wouldn't feel comfortable in a support group where there was someone who said he was a woman, but looked still like a man."

What do you mean by "still looked like a man" - would you also exclude any women who are very hirsute due to hormonal problems, or who are quite butch? Short of demanding to see what's inside somebody's knickers it's not always easy to determine whether someone is xx or xy.

Reducing somebody to what shape their genitals are is exactly the opposite of what I feel feminism should be about.

Sorry got your name wrong before, Seahouses, not Seahorses.

There are different ideas of what causes transexualism and 1 poster posted the mental map idea. I have heard that proposed lots of times as 1 theory including by transexuals. So some or lots of trans people may not agree with this, but some trans people do. I don't personally.

You talk about an internal gender identity. I accept totally that some men and women feel like they are the opposite sex. But how do we know they are right? Thats the real sticking point here, I don't think they are right.

Lots of people still think most transexuals have surgery, I have said on here that is not the case. I don't think it is stereotyping, just most people's knowledge comes through the media and the individual's stories they tell are largely of those who do have surgery e.g. embarassing bodies last night. The psychiatric treatment has only been mentioned in reference to evaluation for surgery and gender dysphoria clinics for children, so I think you are wrong to say there has been stereotyping here.

Actually in your example, religious institutions do ask you to choose whether you are a Muslim or a Christian. You won't be confirmed into the church for example unless you choose, you won't get priority for some faith schools unless you choose, etc. And of course religion affiliation can change, the point of gender identity as discussed re transgender, is that it is fixed, so I don't think it is really the same.

Of course most of the time it doesn't matter whether someone is male or female or whether I agree with their declared gender identity. I have worked alongside someone who is transexual and of course there is absolutely no issue there. The issue is when someone who for example, is born with a male body but wants to access women only spaces. That is when the issue affects people.

But my thread wasn't even about that. It is arguing that feminism and the wrong body are contradictory ideas. Although I am of course more than happy to discuss other elements of transsexual/transgender.

I hide these threads , because I find the complete lack of humanity and compassion to the state of mind of another human being is diabolical and makes me ashamed to be associated with some feminists.

They smack of indoctrination and a complete inability to embrace a concept that affects such a tiny proportion of either gender. And trans gender goes BOTH ways and yet the prevailing argument is always anti male.

As much as I see some of the injustices of the balance of equality between the sexes in our society, it not just one way traffic, and I far prefer it to the horror that would be life under the extremism of some feminist ideals.

Widow - Of course there are some transexuals who pass and who we wouldn't know they were transexuals. But all the transexuals I have met who are MtoF are obviously transexuals (I accept there may be some who pass who I have met and I wouldn't know are transexual). There are lots of things that tell us whether someone has a male body rather than just what is in their pants. And that is very different from a woman who is pretty hairy or has a moustache or a woman who is butch who will still be recognisably a woman.

Kis - Feminists talk more about MtoF because it is some of these individuals who want to access women only space and so it is MtoF who have more of an impact on feminists in the real world. Although on feminist blogs, there are plenty of posts about FtoM as well.

I think patriarchy has a negative impact on both women and men actually. It is only because of feminists insisting for decades that men can be involved in child rearing for example, that many more men are involved in this than say 60 years ago. And 60 years ago most men did not have the work of child rearing, but they also missed out a lot on the benefits - so they were negatively impacted as well.

I don't think we should accept ideas just to be compassionate or because it may upset some people if we don't. Of course with individual transexual people we should always be decent human beings and treat individuals well, but I don't think that is a reason to ignore any critical analysis

Nothingold, I see your point about how you think disability is a social construct. However I disagree, some disabilities do limit a persons capabilities. Some people can overcome challenges to achieve more than others thought possible. The point is, being open minded would reduce the impact of society defining what is a disability or what is possibe/impossible. Can this line of thinking not be applied to trans?

Psychology isn't a science it's a social science.

There isn't a scientitific test for homosexuality either. People have to state that that's what they are.

The irrational and illogical arguments on this thread are incredible.

I hate these threads myself because they show a complete lack of respect and compassion for women and our reality.

Instead any man who claims to be one has his feelings and desires put above the real needs of biological human females. It's extraordinary. It's also completely based in misogyny. It's only through misogynistic beliefs that the idea can come about that a man who removes his penis is a woman, or even a man who keeps his penis for that matter.

It's also extraordinary to be talking about female humans being "privileged" over male humans. Another of patriarchy's reversals.

But Nyac,what about FtoM?If you believe,which obviously you don't,that a MtoF is a woman,then you also believe a FtoM is a man. So where is the misogyny in that? it isn't all one way.

I agree NYAC that in threads like this and others, women's feelings are ignored and disregarded. We should accept MtoF trans into women only spaces to be compassionate and not hurt their feelings and nothing is said about the feelings ofw omen using those women only spaces