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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

631 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:25

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

OP posts:
EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:50

Why would anyone report posts? We are all being very polite here

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Aboutlastnight · 07/05/2012 20:50

I don't really see what the problem is with deciding to change sex/gender, people change their bodies all the time to reflect their psyche. I don't know why this topic dominates feminism on mumsnet. It says nothing to me about my life or the lives of millions of women.

Nyac · 07/05/2012 20:54

I suppose the alternative is to change your psyche to reflect your body.

If you look in the mirror and see the sex you are reflected back at you, why would you deny its reality?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 20:57

Aboutlastnight - It has consequences in the real world. If anyone can be a woman, anyone can access woman only space. Many feminists value women only space and have lots of experience of transexuals successfully accessing it or trying to access it. This includes things like support groups for women who have been raped as well as social groups for lesbians.

If it didn't have real life consequences, it wouldn't really matter.

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Aboutlastnight · 07/05/2012 20:58

Your body is your psyche, they are one thing all interlinked. It must be horrendous to possess a penis and feel it's alien to you. I feel compassion for these people. And I think it's small potatoes for feminism.

ecclesvet · 07/05/2012 21:03

"Many feminists value women only space and have lots of experience of transexuals successfully accessing it or trying to access it."

Has anyone here actually had experience with transsexuals trying to access help/support? Actual personal experience, not just hearing about it on the news? Always seemed mythical to me, much like the rabid feminist berating someone for holding open a door.

Nyac · 07/05/2012 21:03

If your body is your psyche why would you put artificial hormones into it or mutilate it? It's hideous. Far better just to accept reality.

Of course the thing with quite a lot of MTF trans is that they don't see their penises as alien. They claim to be women but don't plan to get rid of their penises or testes. A man doesn't have to have his penis removed now to be legally recognised as a woman in this country now.

ecclesvet · 07/05/2012 21:05

"If your body is your psyche why would you put artificial hormones into it?"

You mean like the Pill?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:06

ecclesvet - Yes lots of experience. Used to use a Women's Centre a lot. At first transexuals were excluded, then individual groups were allowed to make their own decision - social groups generally said yes and specialist support groups no, then all groups had to let transexuals in. There were 3 transexuals who went to lots of the groups

Also in 2 women only walking groups and in lesbian only space. i have lots and lots of experience of this.

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:08

I have read, don't know how accurate it is, that 80% of transexuals don't have genital surgery

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Aboutlastnight · 07/05/2012 21:11

People do all sorts of irrational or contradictory things to their bodied to suit a certain construct. Ask Jordan. But right now, if someone is happy being treated as a woman in our society, if it allows them to function as a happy healthy human being, then I don't understand why certain feminists see it as an issue.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 21:11

Eats, would a FTM trangendered person be welcome in Women Only spaces?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:14

Dione - I don't know why a FTM would want to access women only space if they see themselves as a man and I have never come across any FTM wanting to access women only space. I wouldn't mind as I would still see them as a woman, but I would think it was a pretty strange thing to do

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EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:14

What does it matter what "feminists" believe? You can't set rigid rules, people are highly complex and should be allowed to express themselves as they see fit. Sounds very close minded to me.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:17

Eclectic - So for example, you don't think there should be women only space say for women to discuss experiences of rape?

And you don't think it matters if when feminism is fighting for the rights of women anyone can say whether they are a woman?

Because I do

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Nyac · 07/05/2012 21:18

I don't support the pill ecclesvelt.

Do you want to answer the actual question?

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 21:19

I agree Eclectic, in fact the notion that transgender occurs because of patriarchal society reminds me of a friend's aunt who believed that people were only gay because of sexual abuse in childhood.

Nyac · 07/05/2012 21:23

You can't compare sexuality to transgender.

Transgender claims that people's bodies are "wrong". Sexuality is an orientation and a behaviour.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:23

Dione - I didn't say why transgender or transexualism occurs - they are different. I accept that peopel believe they are born in the wrong body or with the wrong genitals and i suspect there are lots of causes for that.

What I disagree with, is the idea that feeling this way means that in reality they are physically in the wrong body and therefore they are the opposite sex from their biological body

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EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:24

"anyone can say they are a woman"?

That's an ignorant statement. Bpeiple who ate born with male characteristics and feel they should be women are not anyone... It's very rare.

This thread is extremely bigoted and ridiculous IMO.

Call yourself a feminist? Someone who stands up for equality but does it at the detriment to other people's rights of equality. Ironic.

Feminism is a just cause, don't get me wrong but surely you can widen your equality belief to the whole human race.

Standing up for one section of section of society at te detriment to other sections is called fascism.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 21:29

Eats, so you don't think that people can be born into the wrong body. What are you basing this on?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:29

I do believe in justice. But it is not possible to always have equality. The rights and needs of different groups are sometimes contradictory. For example, there have been problems where I live with some radical Muslim bus drivers not wanting people with guide dogs to get onto their bus. You could argue that the Muslim driver has the right not to be near dogs because of his religion/culture. You could argue that people using guide dogs have the right to use all buses.

Their rights are contradictory - you have to choose who to support. You can't always have equality for everyone

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:32

Dione - No-one has ever satisfactorily explained to me what being born in the wrong body means - beyond a feeling. Secondly a body is a biological reality. How is it even possible logically for this biological reality to be wrong?

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Nyac · 07/05/2012 21:33

We still haven't had a definition of a "wrong body". What is a "wrong body", especially when a lot of MTF trans don't change their bodies and keep their male sexual characterisitics but still claim to be women.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 21:34

Nyac, transgenders and homosexuals both claim that their feelings are inherent and not the product of societal influences.

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