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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

631 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:25

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

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ThatGhastlyWoman · 07/05/2012 21:35

Re: genital surgery- I wouldn't know the reasons for every trangender person not seeking a full op, but I have read that the procedure is not only painful, but not necessarily satisfactory- so perhaps they are hoping medical advances might be made in future, but want to hold on to something that allows them to pee and feel in the meantime.

Either way, it seems petty to me to attach so much meaning to a piece of flesh that is on someone else's body, especially when you are arguing that gender is a societal construct.

Glad to see some sense is being talked on here.

Incidentally, men can be raped, as can transgendered people. In fact, I imagine that, sadly, transgendered folk may be at a fair risk of sexual violence. There are, I am sure, resources for transgendered people to meet up, but I doubt they exist everywhere. So, if a transgender woman had been raped- you think she shouldn't have the same support that you should... as a human being? Because you have manacled yourself to 'feminist theory' rather than a sense of simple humanity?

Aboutlastnight · 07/05/2012 21:36

Feelings are important.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:36

Actually Dione, there is a lot of disagreement amongst gay people about whether they are born gay or become gay. People argue different things. And the reality is no one actually knows who is right

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Nyac · 07/05/2012 21:36

Once again being gay or lesbian is a sexual orientation and a behaviour.

Saying that you're in the "wrong body" i.e. that your physical reality is "wrong" is wholly different.

If I said I was a giraffe would you believe me. If not why not? Why can't I be born into the wrong species?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:39

TGW - Of course transexual people and men can be raped. Of course they should get support. But surely you can see that some women who have been raped wouldn't feel comfortable in a support group where there was someone who said he was a woman, but looked still like a man.

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EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:40

Eats, I've never heard of blind support dogs being against any religion.

"no one has satisfactorily explained to you".

Maybe they don't feel the need to... Maybe you should learn how to think critically and not believe everything you are told as part of what you believe.

Your views quite honestly astound 'me. I know it's a complicated area but it's so rare, does it really bother you... Do you really think its a threat to womankind?

Tolerance, understanding and acceptance is the root of all equality and you are showing few of those qualities in this debate.

Gives feminism a bad name, in fact, it gives human kind a bad name to be so hell bent on needing "satisfactory" explanation for why people feel as they do.

I expect you thought the feminist section would whole heartedly agree with your views. You obviously don't understand feminism or there's more people like you on this board that have not come forward.

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:43

Eats, your last post sums it up, lack of empathy, understanding and tolerance towards anyone who you not not define to be a woman. That is not feminism.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:45

Eclectic - Believe me I did not think most people here would agree with me. I thought it was possible that nobody would agree with me.

The example of dogs was not meant to derail the thread into discussing that, but in some Muslim cultures dogs are seen as forbidden and dirty. Other Muslims argue that this is not the religion but the culture. But the point was just that sometimes people's rights are contradictory and you have to choose who to support.

Another example would be the Christian couple who did not want to let rooms in their B&B to gay people. The rights of the Christian couple and potential gay customers clash, you have to choose who to support.

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ThatGhastlyWoman · 07/05/2012 21:45

Jesus. What does it cost you, personally, to accept that someone feels the way they do? That they have struggled with feeling like that, probably fought against those feelings for years, and have finally had the courage to stand up and say, in a hostile environment, 'this is who I truly believe myself to be'.

As far as I am concerned, what you think or believe doesn't matter in the slightest- but it is hurtful- and unnecessarily so.

Just because you can't get your head around something doesn't give you the right to piss all over someone else.

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:47

My point exactly. You can be a humanist rather than a Christian or a feminist. You can choose to support all people in their quest for equality.

You don't have to chose.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:47

Where am I pissing over anyone? I have simply said that the belief of being born in the wrong body is contradictory to feminism

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EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:49

It's not contradictory to feminism, who told you was?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 21:50

Thats what all my posts and NYAC's have been about on this thread

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DioneTheDiabolist · 07/05/2012 21:52

But if you don't understand it in the first place, how can you say that it's contradictory to feminism?

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 21:57

For what it's worth, I don't agree with NYAC, it's not as simplistic as that. If you really want to believe that, it's up to you but I'm sure if you look hard enough, you will find scientific evidence to the contrary.

ecclesvet · 07/05/2012 21:58

For the 'wrong body' confusion:

We have two maps of our body: an internal map, and an external map. The external map is redrawn each time you look at yourself - e.g. you can see you have 5 fingers on your hand. Your internal map is never redrawn - you will always feel you are supposed to have 5 fingers on your hand, even if you lose them in an accident (occasionally this can result in the fascinating Phantom Limb Syndrome; one study found that some FtMs had experienced phantom erections, even before they had started any treatment!).

Studies show that transgender individuals have a neurology more closely matching their 'intended' sex, not their 'born as' sex - i.e. for MtF people, they have a 'female' brain in a male body.

The internal map of a transgender person says that they should have primary and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, while the external map says that they have primary and secondary sexual characteristics of another sex. This conflict is known as dysphoria and it is the heart of transgenderism.

Transgender people feel they are in the wrong body in the same way that you feel having two legs or ten fingers is just normal - your body's blueprint is telling you that's just the way you should be. It is hard for 'normal' (aka cis-gendered) people to understand, since privileged people can't see their privilege.

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 22:01

Thanks for explaining Ecclesvet.

Nyac · 07/05/2012 22:05

There isn't any scientific evidence to support trans. Anybody who claims there is is incorrect. Trans is a feeling, no more and no less. There are no empirical tests for it. Psychiatrists have to diagnose it.

There's plenty of evidence to demonstrate that sex exists and is a reality. In fact the whole of the human race is a demonstration of it, given that we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for male and female - if we didn't have two sexes, we wouldn't be able to reproduce.

It's very odd to be reading people claiming that trans believe they are in the "wrong body" when in fact many MTF trans don't change their bodies - keep their penises and testes. How do they fit into the trans paradigm? I don't expect anybody to answer that, because I've noticed that proponents of the institution of trans don't like answering difficult questions.

Dysphoria is a mental disorder ecclesvet. It's not proof that trans beliefs about sex reflect any kind of reality.

nothingoldcanstay · 07/05/2012 22:07

ecclesvet - so where would that leave someone who was disabled then? Should they have the body they feel they should have had or should they learn to deal with other peoples perceptions of disability - because disability is socially constructed too.
I can see why radical disability rights campaigners might take issue in the same way EatsBrainsAndLeaves feels about it.

nothingoldcanstay · 07/05/2012 22:09

Sorry not trying to speak for you EatsBrainsAndLeaves . Just curious

ThatGhastlyWoman · 07/05/2012 22:10

Nyac - I believe I answered your question re: not every trangender person having full re-assignment.

EclecticShock · 07/05/2012 22:15

NYAC, psychology is a science! It based on scientific evidence. You don't seem to know much about this discussion. We are in the twentieth century, catch up.

WildEyedAndHairy · 07/05/2012 22:17

I agree with Eats and Nyac too. And nothing* that is a very good point.

ecclesvet have you any references for the internal/external map please? Hadn't heard of that before and would be interested to know more about the theory.

ecclesvet · 07/05/2012 22:18

"There isn't any scientific evidence to support trans."

There's plenty.

"Trans is a feeling, no more and no less. There are no empirical tests for it. Psychiatrists have to diagnose it."

A few years ago, people said the same thing about homosexuality. You could still same the same thing about depression - psychiatrists have to diagnose it, it's just a feeling, etc.

"There's plenty of evidence to demonstrate that sex exists and is a reality."

No-one has argued otherwise, just disagreed that determining sex is as simple as looking for a penis or vagina. Even XX or XY is not nuanced enough.

"when in fact many MTF trans don't change their bodies - keep their penises and testes. How do they fit into the trans paradigm?"

I hardly think that choosing not to undergo major surgery is proof that someone doesn't feel something, especially on as complex an area as this. Dysphoria affects different people differently, some feel a much stronger disconnect than others.

scottishmummy · 07/05/2012 22:18

no nyac don't make sweeping global statements about what feminism is
please do make it clear youre expressing your subjective opinion, as one does on a discursive thread. bit no I don't think you can pass your pov off as definitive feminist line
you're not the oracle of all things feminist

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