Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

The recognised right of an individual to prefer being referred to and acknowledged in terms of their bio-identity may potentially benefit another group of extremely marginalised people:

Quote from Androgyne link :
"For humans, an androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" woman and man, or as entirely genderless. They may identify as non-gendered, genderneutral, agendered, between genders, genderqueer, multigendered, intergendered, pangender or gender fluid."

I am actually a variation of androgyne according to this definition (as I describe my gender-identity as being nil/neutral).

Many might be happy self-identifying as androgyne, but many may not realise they do not have to gender-identify, and that it is thoroughly acceptable and valid to choose to bio-identify. I know that for me, this thought has produced a feeling of liberation. :)

Hmm, after going away and reflecting I realised I probably shouldn't have used the phrase 'feeling of liberation' on this thread in the way I did, as the word 'liberation' carries a far more loaded meaning here than it does in casual everyday speech (and I did not mean to invoke that).

I revise it to 'produced a greater sense of freedom to self-express in a way relevant to me'.

In one groups of female friends, I've been nicknamed the "man", but I don't completely identify with either gender (I feel I'm an individual, and am satisfied with that definition). Not identifying completely as female changes my views on feminism, and makes me closer to a neutral party.

I enjoy challenging stereotypes, but don't know if I fit the definition of a feminist.

I feel like I am an individual as well. I think it sounds a bit insulting to call you the "man". But hard to judge over the internet if it really is?

Eatsbrains

"But they grew up with the privileges of boys and usually young men and have the self confidence and self esteem that many women have to fight to get"

Are you for real? Why do you think they have a such a incredibly high suicide rate?

Because patriarchy likes to police gender WW. I'd suggest that causes high suicide rates. Doesn't negate then being brought up with male privilege.

Sorry, but the assumption that a MTF grows up with male privilege and therefore innately has higher self esteem and confidence than a cis woman is so far away from the reality it's ridiculous.

It reads like someone is theorising without actually ever having looked into the topic, or ever spoken to someone who actually is MTF or ever witnessed the relentless bullying which they often are exposed to.

If you read Transsexuals MtoF talking on the internet who pass, many are very shocked at the sexism they experience - the small things that happen everyday, etc. That is because they grew up with the privilege of not having to deal with this. It doesn't mean that they don't experience other negative stuff.

Also my personal experience of the MtoF I have met is yes they do have more seld confifdence than the average women their age. They are generally happier to speak out in large groups, to share their feelings and give their viewpoints.

I don't think male privilege means you necessarily have to have higher self esteem and confidence as a result (although this is probably generally true), but it is still a privilege that gives you an advantage and a better fighting chance at having that outcome.

The fact that you may have experienced another disadvantage (that may conversely reduce esteem and confidence) does not mean that the first advantage is 'cancelled' out, it is just another factor to consider.

Its a bit like saying a man who was born disabled doesn't have male privilege, because his disability has effected the way society treated him. Or a man who is severely depressed no longer has male privilege because he feels miserable and has no self esteem.

He does have male privilege (all the privileges that come with being treated male), and he also happens to have a societal disadvantage associated with being disabled (or depressed). But one does not cancel the other out.

For a fairer comparison, a FtM transexual would also grow up with the same disadvantage due to their transsexual status (and the impact on self esteem and confidence), but in addition they would not have the benefit of male privilege granted by society.

kim147, thanks for posting. I find your input really interesting: hopefully those of us reading it can take your experiences on board and gain a better understanding on the subject.

You are describing the effects of societal disapproval based on your feelings of not fitting in. These obviously constitute the biggest part of your childhood experience that you remember and are consciously aware of.

Male privilege is a lot to do with a lot of things behind the scenes, such as what people think when they first look at you, what someone thinks when they see your name on paper, certain attitudes and assertiveness that men are not punished for displaying, but women are shot down for socially, etc. etc.

Men who are not transsexuals are often not aware of their own male privilege, and so I am not surprised that you cannot consciously see it either, especially as your experience of transgender disadvantage is more central to your feelings and experience.

One still does not negate the other.

A FtM transsexual would likely relate very similar experiences about not fitting in etc. However, she would experience the disadvantage of being visibly female and treated as such by society at the same time.

For what its worth, I am very sorry for your experience, and no one is trying to say that your life was a bed of roses. But the fact remains that a born female in the same position as you growing up would have faced additional disadvantage, due to being visibly female and treated as such (aka no male privilege).

Also, not fitting society's expectations of you as a male does not erase male privilege (which is based on your sex).

What it does do, is create a new and separate disadvantage, based on gender.

There are two different phenomenon going on - male privilege granted automatically based on your sex, and societal punishment for not bowing to gender role.

Having a certain disadvantage does not cancel out an advantage you also happen to have. The disadvantage may override your experience of life and make the advantage even more invisible to you than usual (most males who are not transgendered cannot see it either).

But people who do not experience the advantage (females) can see it as clear as day.

Your sister is not a fair comparison as she is not experiencing transgender disadvantage.

To get a true picture of the difference, you would have to examine the life of a FtM transgendered person growing up.

Males are not all perceived the same by society. The thing that they have in common is that they are perceived as males (which comes with a host of assumptions and privileges).

Some unfortunately then go on to experience disadvantages on top of this (such as being transgendered, disabled, poor, skin colour in the minority, etc. etc. etc.)

Any or all of these disadvantages can erode the person's experience of life and make them see no advantage in life whatsoever.

I am not saying your life as a total was advantaged. I am saying you have had advantages and disadvantages.

You (for example) have an advantage that a FtM transgendered person would not have had growing up (not being visibly seen and treated as female growing up, which would have given you a new disadvantage on top of the ones you already had).

It may be difficult to see, because in your case being visibly female growing up would have erased your punishment for violating gender role... so understandably it can seem like it would have been a wonderful advantage in your case.

Which is why in order to really see what I am trying to pinpoint, you would have to compare your experiences as a biological male with female gender growing up to a biological female with male gender growing up. (not your sister who experiences no gender disadvantage)

Some of the male privilege you had/have is based on what you did not have to experience. For example, not being sexually harassed, having sexual cat calls on the street, etc. As well as the wider messages about girls and boys e.g. girls are not as logical, not able to argue their point as well, not able to drive as well, etc - all stuff teacers and others said when I was growing up.

You also seem to think that only Transsexuals experience censure for not fitting in with prescribed gender roles? I was not a teenage girly girl - wasn't interested in make up, clothes, boys, etc and displayed some more typically "masculine" behaviour. Believe me, I along with anyone who doesn't fit into proscribed roles was censured heavily for this.

Also individuals can fight against their disadvantages and succeed - but it doesn't mean the disadvantages aren't there. For example somebody from a very poor background becoming a millionaire or President Obama becoming president in a country with a lot of people with pretty racist attitudes. The person from a poor background has fought through their disadvantage, but they were more disadvanatged than someone from a well off background

Indeed, one example alone - just being born female and growing up female more than doubles your chances of being sexually molested, even before you are done being a child!

And for that child growing up and into their teen years, it is not even just the impact of whether or not that happens to them... it is the impact of seeing and hearing about the significantly higher amount of female friends who have had it happen to them, and being constantly warned by society that it is more likely to happen to you.

kim147

Maybe it would be more helpful to understanding in the context of your experience if you considered it in terms of 'female disadvantage' rather than 'male privilege'.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves It comes mostly from my best friend, who has her own couple of nicknames, and it's all in good fun.

I didn't fit into the gender role very well as a teen/child. I wasn't reprimanded for it, but I was treated differently by peers. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

Its fine that is off topic - I started the thread and I am fine with this.

Yes white people experience white privilege and middle class people experience middle class privilege.

So yes privilge is complicated in that there are lots of things taking place at once. Its not about trying to figure out which individual with which set of circumstances is less or more privileged - that would be imopssible/very difficult and a bit pointless to do.

But women as a group do come of worse in lots and lots of very real indicators - not just in the UK, but internationally as well. So as feminists we are fighting against the oppression of women. Many feminists including me, also fight against the oppression other groups experience as well. It doesn't have to be an either or.