Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

"They are already telling us that F4J (and by association every dad in the land) are bullying and intimidating them in this latest campaign, a stance that completely ignores the decades of intimidation that has been suffered by fathers at the hands of women?s organistions and which attempts to control the space around the campaign..."

Do they think we are as mad and misguided as them?

Intimidation by women's organisations?

From http://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/on-the-tyranny-of-the-weak-a-mothers-day-musing/

Who is this handmaden person?

Agree that F4J are a waste of space, though.

Well, yeah, repeated throwing of stuff at a person is abusive, just like repeated name-calling and lying and belittling is abusive. But most male victims of DV from female partners are not repeatedly raped, strangled or pinned down and unable to escape, the level of violence and risk of injury is generally, statistically higher with male-on-female violence.

SGB, I totally respect your opinion, and generally agree with it, but he never has, and never would, rape, strangle etc his ex. Why should his behavior be judged in the light of those who would?

And, btw, why does it have to be "repeated" behavior, when a one-off is good enough to ditch a man? ( See many threads in Relationships)

Abuse is systematic. Often in the relationship threads a punch etc hasn't come in isolation. There has been verbal/emotional abuse before. The punch is an escalation of abuse. There is no remorse by the perpetrator and they blame the victim.

I am not sure why some people are arguing women are as bad as men. It simply isn't the case. In the US one woman is killed by a partner every 2 hrs. In this country it is 2 women a week. Men have been using violence to suppress women (and other men) for millenia. The reverse is not true.

'Misandry ( /mɪˈsændri/) is the hatred or dislike of men or boys. The word is of some history but did not appear in most dictionaries until the second half of the 20th century' - Wikipedia.

'In the past quarter century, we exposed biases against other races and called it racism, and we exposed biases against women and called it sexism. Biases against men we call humor.'
?Warren Farrell, Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say

'In contrast, men experiencing any form of partner abuse were more likely to have experienced having something thrown at them since the age of 16 than women (57% males; 46% females).'

Yes, but again this refers to incidents since the age of 16, and so does not take into account the changing pattern of DV. The figures for abuse in the past 12 months show a very different pattern.

'totally disingenuous to compare the two and conclude women are as violent as men'

I am not doing that, and have made that clear several times. What I am saying is that the usual public portrayal of gender differences in DV is misandrist rubbish that represents, perpetuates and promotes a polarised view of the issue which hinders, rather than helps, address the causes of DV.

Misandry doesn't exist. HTH.

Misandry was a word invented by whiny men in order to try and pretend that misogyny is just a different POV, equalled by this new invention of misandry, instead of a millenia-old, systemic hatred of women, backed up by legal, economic and social norms.

There is no time in history, when men have been systematically persecuted and oppressed purely and simply because they are men. They have not been systematically "othered" purely and simply because they are men. There have not been laws made to prevent them functioning fully in the society into which they were born, purely and simply because they were men. All this has happened to women and it is called misogyny. Misandry OTOH, is just a way a whiny man complains that he hasn't got his own way with a woman for once.

HTH

AA - Perhaps the worst kind of discrimination is that which denies its own existence. To deny misandry's existence fits very neatly with the woman good/man bad paradigm.

BTW do you know what the stats are for men murdered by their partner/ex?

No, the worst kind of discrimination is the worst kind of discrimination

... the oppression of women, slavery, racism - that kind of thing.

To pretend that misandry exists in the same way as misogyny, is to be a MRA.

When men are being raped, sexually assaulted, attacked and murdered in the same numbers as women, when they are being blamed for their own assaults as women are, when they are systematically earning less than women purely because they have penises, when they have less leisure time than women purely because they are men, when they are being under-reprsented in the media, politics, finance, business, sport, culture - all areas of life - then come back and talk about misandry.

Until then, if you claim misandry is the same as misogyny, nobody intelligent will have any respect for your arguments.

Oh and it's not good enough to come back with figures about men being murdered raped and assaulted by other men.

They'd have to be suffering this at the hands of women, for misandry to be as real as misogyny.

And it ain't ever gonna happen, because women simply don't inflict the violence on men, that men inflict on women. They never have done and they never will do.

Misandry exists. Caring only about the rights and needs of women whilst excluding the real problems that men face is misandrist. To say that misandry doesn't exist is misandrist.

I guess the closest 'ism' I belong to is egalitarianism or equalism, but I don't really define myself as anything.

Johnde, you are wasting your time here. There's none so blind as those that cannot see.

Firstly, denying the existence of misandry doesn't ignore the real problems men face.

Those real problems are caused by patriarchy, not by non-existent misandry.

Tell me where women are subjecting men to rape, sexual assault, violence, lower pay, unequal representation in politics, society and the law at the same rate that men are doing so to women, SF and I'll agree that it exists.

Until then, it's just a whiny men's way of whinging that nowadays, sometimes women escape from male control and the state supports them to do that.

And tell me what campaigns egalitarianism or equalism has fought and won. What fights did they take on? What victories did they win? What are they fighting for now? How can anyone join?

Male rape/sexual assault and violence are massively under-reported, and treated as unimportant as you well know (or at least you would know, if you ever bothered to find out which is highly unlikely).

Tell me how women are unequally represented in the law?

Men get a raw deal, particularly in the family law courts. They get abused physically and emotionally, yet this is ignored.

Now I'm not saying that women are not suffering at the hands of men, not at all, but the goverment and charities are falling over themselves to help them, men get virtually nothing.

And on top of that, you expect your own decent DH's to sit there and apologise on the behalf of men who have committed atrocious acts worldwide (another thread on FWR), and accept their role in the 'patriarchy' (which incidentally is a wonderful cop out for women to excuse their own sometimes appalling behaviour). Mindblowing.

When women accept that men are as important as they are, and vice versa, then we might start getting there.

Strangely, I happen to think its men who don't think women are as important as them; what with female infanticide, rape, torture, incest,--and IPV being daily occurrences for women.

As for the issue of refuges for male victims of rapw and IPV, I see a lot of whiny about it to feminists from people who are too lazy to get off their asses and do something about it themselves. If men, as a group, spent less ye whining about feminists supporting women and more time campaigning for and building rape crisis centres for men, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Men have the financial and political clout to do this. Instead, they just whine about women not doing it for them.

'And tell me what campaigns egalitarianism or equalism has fought and won. What fights did they take on? What victories did they win? What are they fighting for now? How can anyone join?'

I said I didn't really define myself as anything, but that was the closest in terms of my beliefs.

My beliefs are my own, shaped by my own experiences, not someone elses. I don't need to belong to anything. I make my own choices because, amazingly, even in spite of the horrendous male opression, privilage and patriarchy, I'm free to do that. I must be a particularly strong, empowered women eh? Or maybe I can just see through the BS.

Finacial and political clout? Are you fucking kidding me? The goverment doesn't give a shit about mens issues. The governmental funding for men's refuge's is woeful, they get virtually nothing.

In this country:

2 women a week are killed by partners/ex-partners.

0.5 men a week are killed by partners/ex-partners (figures only available for the last couple of years as it wasn't recorded before).

So women are 4x more likely to be killed by a partner/ex-partner than a man.

Male rape/sexual assault and violence are massively under-reported, but they are no more under-reported as female rape and violence is. They are also not treated as any less unimportant than female rape and violence and they are not subjected to rape and sexual assault at the same rate as females and generally, they are subjected to it by other men, not by women. So not misandry then.

Tell me how women are unequally represented in the law? 90% non report of rape, 6% conviction rate even though only 4% false allegation rate. Women tend to get higher sentences than men for the same crimes.

Men get a raw deal, particularly in the family law courts. They get abused physically and emotionally, yet this is ignored. They get a raw deal, because they have given the women they live with a raw deal and not done their fair share of parenting, so the court rightly maintains the status quo, in the interests of stability for the child. So not misandry then.

"Now I'm not saying that women are not suffering at the hands of men, not at all, but the goverment and charities are falling over themselves to help them, men get virtually nothing." Really? Last I heard, DV refuges were closing due to lack of funds, benefits were being cut, Child Benefit for higher earners is being cut meaning that SAHMs whose husbands earn a lot are going to be even more in their husband's financial control and rape crisis centres are having grants cut.

"And on top of that, you expect your own decent DH's to sit there and apologise on the behalf of men who have committed atrocious acts worldwide (another thread on FWR), and accept their role in the 'patriarchy' (which incidentally is a wonderful cop out for women to excuse their own sometimes appalling behaviour). Mindblowing." Don't be silly.

"When women accept that men are as important as they are, and vice versa, then we might start getting there." Most women subconsciously believe men are more important than them.

That's because men, as a group, don't bother campaigning for it.

Women's refuges get funding because women work their asses off campaigning and fundraising for it. Women have fought hard every step of the way for the paltry concessions we have received.

Men don't and then whine about women not doing it for them.

Men are over-represented in government at ALL levels. Why don't you ask them why they aren't building rape crisis centres for other men or financially supporting program's for IPV.

Absolutely, when did you last write to your MP to demand a male refuge?

And I have to take issue with the idea that the government are falling over themselves to help women.

Funding for refuge and Women's Aid has been so badly cut that Refuge fears it will have to shut.

Crisis loans (which about 80% of women fleeing DV use in order to find their feet) have been scrapped.

CSA charges have been introduced and legal aid scrapped, which affect far more women than men and actually benefits men in many cases (since men are far more likely to be on the receiving end of the CSA than women and also are far more likely to be earning too much to qualify for legal aid under the old rules anyway). The amendement that this won't apply for those suffering from DV is meaningless, since the average victim suffers 35 separate incidents of abuse before contacting the police for the first time.