Really? we think that "that organisation" are representative of fathers in general? really?

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

"They are already telling us that F4J (and by association every dad in the land) are bullying and intimidating them in this latest campaign, a stance that completely ignores the decades of intimidation that has been suffered by fathers at the hands of women?s organistions and which attempts to control the space around the campaign..."

Do they think we are as mad and misguided as them?

Intimidation by women's organisations?

From http://karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/on-the-tyranny-of-the-weak-a-mothers-day-musing/

Who is this handmaden person?

The only studies that paint female-to-male violence as anywhere near comparable to male-to-female violence have been hugely discredited by most working in the field. The statistical analysis was highly flawed, the research was not peer-reviewed, and, most shockingly, it included female self-defence as a form of violence.

The slap-for-slap statistical approach also completely ignores the fact that the degree of violence is also substantially different, with men generally being far more violent. This isn't to say that women can't abuse men and some have been horrifically violent. My sympathy goes to men who suffer like that as they would for a female victim, but it is not true that men and women suffer equally.

Also, homosexual victims are included in the male victim figures (violence being surprisingly common in this group).

I also think the 'we have more power here in the west' is a bi besides the point. Of course a western woman has much more freedom and wealth than say a woman in Somalia. But if you compare men and women in the same country, the fact is that men hold far more of the wealth and far more of the political positions of power. Men outnumber women 4 to 1 in Parliament. 69% of local councillors are men. Only 16 of the FTSE 100 companies have women directors, despite law graduates being equal by gender, most firms have less than 20% female partners.

It is wonderful to see more women changing this, but there's a hell of a long way to go. And the big stumbling block continues to be childcare. Women earn the same as men (sometimes more) during their 20s, but this changes significantly after children because it is still women in the main doing the caring. The gender pay gap is mostly due to caring commitments.

I'm very heartened to hear that there is much more equality among your social group. I hope it is a pattern that expands, but it is certainly not representative of the norm right now.

Thank you Josephine for setting the record straight about Pizzey. She has seethed and tried everything possible to undermine those organisations who wouldn't bow down at her feet all those years ago. She didn't found Chiswick Family Refuge single handedly, either.

It's not surprising though that she's seen as a hero to those who dislike feminists, believe most domestic abuse is made up and just generally don't like women much.

Actually, it was so long ago I posted on this thread - 10 March, I hadn't realised that the appropriation of Erin Pizzey by F4J is an excellent illustration of what I meant in the final paragraph.

I thought Erin Pizzey was very well known for being gender-biased, i.e. doesn't like women much.

One could draw that conclusion, yes.

I can only talk about this from a male perspective, those are the cards I was dealt at conception. However I fully respect the views expressed here.

'we don't undervalue it (childcare) - we recognise that it is undervalued and see that as part of the problem.'

Maybe not, but I have heard plenty of so-called feminists describe childcare as dull and boring. To my mind it's anything but, most of the time. The problem I suffer from is that it is seen as valuable when a woman is providing it, but not when a man is. I see the comments as an application of stereotypical male values to the situation.

'then naturally the court would be making different rulings because when, as they do now, they maintain the status quo that status quo would look very different.'

It hasn't stopped them so far! Many judges have a sexist stereotyped view of gender roles. They are not 'maintaining the status quo' because their judgements lag way behind the reality for many modern families. The "status quo" reflects the reality 40 years ago, or more. The 'status quo' is already very different. I think there is huge variability between families in childcare arrangements now, but the courts still apply 'one size fits all' solutions.

Another quote from EP (great woman!) 'Justice and judgement are oft far removed'. (Pretty sure that one's right.)

'there is the odd person who calls themselves a feminist and doesn't value childcare - on these boards though the over riding view is that being a sahp is a valid job that should be valued more'

Couldn't agree more, would love to be one.

'Erin Pizzey was NOT a founder of Women's Aid. At the meeting in 1975 where Women's Aid was formed as a federation, Erin Pizzey flounced out in a huff because she was not automatically made the leader (there was no leader - it was a federation) and has spent the last 37 years pouting about lesbians 'stealing' 'her' movement.'

Apologies for any factual innaccuracy but my point was not about her views, rather that when she expressed them her dog was killed, she and her children threatened, and she had to flee the country.

'i also think it's disingenuous when dv of being punched, kicked, brutalised by someone stronger than you is viewed as exactly the same as being slapped by someone smaller than you or having something thrown at you. both are abusive and unacceptable but there are also very clear differences'

Yes, I agree, but I also know that a substantial number of men are also subjected to extreme violence by women, and the oft repeated 'the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of abuse are men' is complete sexist ignorant nonsense.

'it's also true that included in these figures of women who are violent towards their partners are women who are being abused and have fought back.' Yes.... but this stems from a WHO report which stated that the overwhelming majority of female on male violence was self-defence. When the studies cited were scrutinised they show this is the case in about 8 % of situations.

Apologies for any factual innaccuracy but my point was not about her views, rather that when she expressed them her dog was killed, she and her children threatened, and she had to flee the country.

So says Erin. Mysteriously the police could find no evidence...

Johnde - while there are several valid point in your posts, I have trouble dealing withe the fact that to highlight male victims of DV and male childcarers,you seem to want to diminish the difficulties faced by women in the same situation.

No one here would deny that male victims of DV and male victims of rape are massively under-reported and suffer from a lack of resources. Why should that be made any better by saying women do it to men, too? Women's Aid, for example, don't care if a woman ends up in a refuge as a result of male violence or female violence in a lesbian relationship. It is the end result that matters. The solution to male DV is to highlight awareness and provide more shelters - something that could only benefit both genders. Trying to shift perspective by saying "women are just as guilty as men" (when the figures suggest anything but" smacks me as not so much wanting to find a solution but as trying to diminish women's experience of DV and paint them in a negative light using twisted evidence. Regarding the 8% statistic reclaimed by the World Health Organisation, who exactly 'scrutinised' the evidence? The methodological scrutiny placed on governmental and international bodies before they use evidence in their reports and plans is intense. I would like to know the rigour applied to the analysis. I strongly suspect that I know how the figure was reduced to 8%, and if I'm right I will not be taking that 'scrutiny' seriously.

I could not agree with you less when you say childcare is valued when women do it and undervalued when men do it. There are numerous studies out there that show when men are primary carers or lone parents they get a lot more support and praise than their female counterparts. Ironically, this is still based on sexism I think (poor man, he can't find it easy etc) but it's still true I think. I think individual men may feel the lack in status because the male role has been traditionally valued in terms of provider rather than carer, but socially speaking male carers are treated with admiration. They still suffer from exactly the same problems that affect female carers though - increased risk of poverty, negative effect on career, etc. That's why I, and many other feminists, want to see the role of carer much more highly valued regardless of who does it.

Again, while I commend you for your own domestic arrangements and I am delighted to hear that many of your friends and fellow campaigners follow suit, you cannot base your opinions on anecdotal evidence alone. Your reality just is not the reality for the majority of the population. You may wish that were different but it isn't. Alarmingly, we are actually going backwards in this trend because of the economic crisis, as more and more women have ended up becoming SAHMs as a result of losing their jobs in the public sector. While I completely agree with you that many judges could do with some enlightenment on the issues of sexism and the reality for ordinary people, I really don't think the judges are being unfair. I am sure there are individual cases where the wrong decision is made, but it goes both ways and I think generally the right decision is made. As more fathers become primary carers that should change (and as I've explained repeatedly, in the main they still are not), but until then they can't expect their child's welfare to be put second to their own perspective of what is fair.

i wish you were right about those stereotypes belonging to an era long gone but sadly you only have to look around the boards on mn to find that it is still incredibly common for men to do bugger all about the house or any childcare. women who couldn't possibly expect their husband to take a day off work because the children are ill but she automatically must, women who look after the children all week and all weekend whilst their partner goes out and has a life etc etc.

all surveys seem to agree that women, even when working full time, still do a much larger proportion of childcare and housework than men and even where men do contribute the woman is left with all the responsibility and coordination.

i also think it is just massively untrue that childcare is valued when women do it but not when men do. single mothers for example are denigrated and treated like the scum of the earth by policy makers and the media - a single dad is like some kind of superhero to be admired for how good he is, he's raised those children on his own you know! etc etc.

i just don't think i'm seeing the same world as you.

I think Susan Maushart's Wifework should be a required set text in secondary school for everyone.

Because , the number of men I see who do basically nothing in terms of childcare and housework is depressing.

And, no, emptying the dishwasher or taking out the bins doesn't count.

especially when you have to be assigned those chores and reminded to do them

'a woman can more easily be 'trapped' in violence by societal factors that don't generally (back to groups rather than individuals) apply to men.'

Yes, they can be trapped , but I question if it's more easily than men. Men are also trapped in abusive relationships by their own gender-specific factors, the most common one being that if they get out of the relationship they can look forward to years of having their children used as a tool of abuse, or maybe never seeing them again.

'The only studies that paint female-to-male violence as anywhere near comparable to male-to-female violence have been hugely discredited by most working in the field.'

No - The 'gold standard' when estimating the prevalence of any condition is the community survey; ask any researcher or epidemiologist and they will say the same. They avoid most common biases which affect research results, the most common being recruitment bias, in this situation usually by looking only at incidents reported to the Police. In the UK we are lucky to have community surveys of partner abuse that have a robust methodology and avoid this bias.

For instance the Scottish Crime and Justice Survey, 2008-09, found 2.9% of men and 2.4% of women had experienced physical abuse within the preceding 12 months. 5.3% of men had experienced any physical or psychological abuse compared with 5% of women.

Nobody in the field has discredited these findings, they have simply ignored them because they do not fit with the woman good/man bad paradigm. The Survey is funded by the Executive and used as their own standard for planning across a wide variety of criminal behaviours (except domestic abuse where they're attempting to rebrand it as 'gender-based violence'!!!).

The above figures give a very simplistic picture. For instance 25% of women and 17% of men suffered a black eye or minor bruising from the most recent physical assault, whereas 18% of men suffered scratches and 9% of women. Women are much more likely to suffer serious bruising - 14% and 3%.

'Also, homosexual victims are included in the male victim figures (violence being surprisingly common in this group).'

That's right and violence is even more frequent in same sex female relationships!

'Men outnumber women 4 to 1 in Parliament. 69% of local councillors are men. Only 16 of the FTSE 100 companies have women directors, despite law graduates being equal by gender, most firms have less than 20% female partners'

Personally I would like to see equal numbers of women in all these roles. I think it would vastly improve society through a variety of both direct and indirect mechanisms; but aren't we both applying essentially male values when determining what constitutes power. I would like to have the power not to work a 50-60 hour week, or the power of having an equal right to stay at home and care for my kids, or the power not to have to subsidise my ex's lifestyle. All these would have far more positive impact on my day to day quality of life than the inequalities you mention.

'It's not surprising though that she's seen as a hero to those who dislike feminists, believe most domestic abuse is made up and just generally don't like women much'

I don't see her as a hero, and I don't dislike feminists, or believe most domestic abuse is made up, or dislike women. I would just like to see more true equality and a recognition that society can and does discrimnate against men maybe just as much as it discriminates against women but in very different ways.

'I hadn't realised that the appropriation of Erin Pizzey by F4J is an excellent illustration of what I meant in the final paragraph.'

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF F4J!

'Trying to shift perspective by saying "women are just as guilty as men" (when the figures suggest anything but" smacks me as not so much wanting to find a solution but as trying to diminish women's experience of DV and paint them in a negative light using twisted evidence.'

I am not trying to shift perspective in order to diminish women's experience of DV or paint them in a negative light. You don't hear politicians standing up and saying 'the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of domestic abuse are female' but that is no more or less true than saying 'the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of domestic abuse are male' which they do frequently. It's simply sexist oversimplistic nonsense which I find deeply offensive.

'i just don't think i'm seeing the same world as you.'

I think we are seeing the same world, just from very different perspectives, and therefore have much to learn from one another.

you do get that of those men assaulted in the last 12months most of them will have been assaulted by other men?

Are those figures not ALL violent crime rather than domestic violence. In which case that includes street crime etc.

I did notice that 79% of perpetrators (where the sex was known) were men in that survey

No- "Among those experiencing partner abuse in the last 12 months, in the most recent / only incident, 48% of offenders were male and 45% female.", SCJS Partner Abuse chapter

Sorry, I should have made it clear that these are just figures for partner abuse, not general crime figures.

Can confirm that the Scottish survey is specifically about domestic violence, my husband conducted some of those interviews.

Slightly selective facts there Johnde. From the same survey (the sentence immediately before it in fact), comes:

In the majority of cases, where partner abuse was experienced since the age of 16, the gender of any abusive partner was male (60%) compared with 38% where the gender of the abusive partner was female. Two per cent did not wish to answer this question.

I've just looked at the 2008/2009 and the 2010/2011 report. There are interesting variations on the nature of abuse according to gender, but the consensus on both reports is that women are more badly affected.

Yes. I selected the original facts because the survey includes people of all ages therefore 'since the age of 16' might mean 40 or 50 years ago. I strongly suspect that the gender pattern of abuse has changed significantly over the years. As with all stats there are various ways one can select particular figures to support one or other view. I thought I did try to make that clear in my post with the reference to figures for 'serious bruising'.

I don't deny that women are more badly affected on average but it still does not detract from the main point that the usual spoutings from politicians are oversimplistic and flagrantly misandrist.

Now this bit

"Among those experiencing any form of partner abuse, the proportion of men and women experiencing any physical abuse was similar (73% females; 71% males).

Of adults experiencing partner abuse since age 16, women were more likely to have experienced:
Being pushed or held down (47% of women compared with 11% of men);
Being kicked, bitten or hit (40% of women compared with 29% of men);
Being choked / strangled / smothered (21% of women compared with three per cent of men);
Forced / attempted to force sexual intercourse (20% of women compared with three per cent of men).

In contrast, men experiencing any form of partner abuse were more likely to have experienced having something thrown at them since the age of 16 than women (57% males; 46% females)."

So men mostly had things thrown at them.

I find that really interesting. I would welcome peoples opinions on this

The abuse against women is using bodily force.

The abuse against men is having something thrown.

I know which I would find more frightening/abusive

john you do realise there is no such word as misandrist? i'm afraid it'll be a full house shortly.

and yes an object thrown across the room by someone smaller and weaker than you doesn't really strike me as being too threatening. if you want to get away you can.

being held down or against a wall and hit, strangled, raped etc by someone bigger and stronger than you who you cannot get away from is rather different.

totally disingenuous to compare the two and conclude women are as violent as men.

Kinda depend on the object thrown. A knife, a coffee/tea mug (with or without hot contents), a boiling kettle, a coffee table... My DS had these thrown at him. He doesn't define it as DV because he's bigger than her, I feel differently.