Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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I don't wear these garments, so I don't have any personal experience of whether they felt liberating or oppressive.

I suppose it would be best to ask a person who does.

From the experience I had of having to wear an abaya when I visited Saudi Arabia and the women that I saw wearing full burqas whilst there, I consider them to be oppressive.
I did not feel comfortable wearing the abaya as it was not something I had chosen to wear but had to wear to comply with the Saudi customs.

I hate threads on this subject. It's so hard to express an opinion that phrased in the right way to avoid being offensive.

I am sympathetic to the view that telling women that they shouldn't wear something is not really that different from telling them that they should. It can also be dismissive to assume that people who do wear these items are poor, downtrodden victims.

However, any difference in appearance that is based on anything other than biology, always makes me suspicious. How come men don't wear modest clothing that is as restrictive as a burqa, or high heels and makeup for that matter?

Striking the right balance between personal choice and true liberty is tricky. The best way is not to have rules about it but to try to create a world where education allows women the freedom to make a true choice (rather than a culturally dominated one).

not again......

My thoughts exactly, SGM

sunshine, it is an interesting point you make, and i am wondering if you believe taht in any society that "world where education allows women the freedom to make a true choice exists"

as those who wear niqaab often go against their families wishes and culture? and often offend their family?

and this point can obviously also be related to the pressure to follow fashion etc

I don't really know how I feel about it tbh. I would say sunshineandbooks wrote a really good post.

Having never had to wear one I don't know, I imagine there are women who have to and don't want to and others who quite enjoy wearing one.

I just wondered what people who knew more about it thought.

Well it depends massively on why they're being worn, surely? Whether it's completely free choice, cultural conformity or actually having to wear it, they're all going to be different and within those it's going to be different as well?

My friend who works with women's aid says some women wear face coverings to avoid attention or being recognised by abusive family members. Could therefore cause problems for them if they weren't allowed to do so.

I do worry about their bones, though. Lack of vitamin D is a serious problem. And don't get me started on the little girls wearing hijabs! WHY are they doing this? Why does a six-year old (but only female six year olds natch) need to be 'modestly dressed'?

quick question - is vitamin d only from direct sunlight? can it be got from food, or from radiation that passes through clothes/ windows?

i know when a baby is jaundices the mw says it is enough to put the baby next to window, and that they dont actually have to be outside in direct sunlight, is vitamin d different?

six year olds dont need to modestly dressed, but some like to wear it?

A friend of mine spent three months in Afghanistan working with an aid agency. She had to wear one of those blue all encompassing robes - is that the niqab?

It was made of some synthetic material. I put it on for about 20 seconds. I felt like I couldn't breath. To think of wearing it in 40 degree heat was horrifying.

Basically I believe in freedom of speech and freedom to wear what you like. BUT the problem with this type of covering is that for every woman who is making a free informed choice that should be respected, I will bet there is another who is forced to cover up through fear of male disapproval and oppression. And that is what makes me very uneasy.

I think Caitlin Moran has the best take on this. Ask yourself what the men are doing. are men forced to cover their heads and faces in certain countries? No not ever, not anywhere.

And I completely agree about little girls - why do some cultures expect them to cover up? If there is a fear that a six year old can ever be 'immodest' that is just crazy and I think should be vigorously opposed.

I saw a family on a beach in Perth once, dad and two little boys in shorts, mum trailing after in full robes, getting bogged down in sand. It was about 35 degrees. Most of people on beach were families, no lustful groups of young men to eye her lustfully.

I really, really don't get how that kind of situation is anything other than oppressive.

Why don't men cover completely, does anyone here know?

I haven't read the Koran but when I have asked people who have, they say there is a general requirement on everyone to dress modestly and there is no religious dictat to say women MUST cover their faces, or even their heads.

I can only assume therefore that the requirementof some cultures that women cover up is simply a reflection of a patriarchal and misogynistic culture that sees women as the chattels of men and wishes to deny them the benefits of free and full participation in the world in case they get all uppity and ask to get an education or similar.

the vast majority of muslims do not take the position that face coverings are an obligation, although they do take the position that head covering is an obligation.

why cant you get an education in niqaab? plenty do? in London?

and most of these have to fight against the wishes of their parents and communities to wear it.

i dont know about the countries where women are forced to wear it, i have never been there.

darling it is said to be the same as why women cant walk around without a top on but men can,

there are still requirements as to what must be covered but the requirements are less, the same as in british law?

Sort of a tangent, but I'm not sure about the Caitlan Moran quote. I haven't read her book and confess I'm not that familiar with her work.

She only has a partial point because there are cultures where men are required/expected to wear head covering (i.e. Sikh men in turbans but no head covering required for women, Orthodox Jewish men in yarmulkes but only married women having head covering - scarf or wig.)

Also, as nailak said, it's generally acceptable for men to be topless in many social settings in the UK, but not for women to be so - so even here, there are some different gender "rules" on what is acceptable and/or sufficiently modest attire.

Now that I think about it, there's also a flip side to the Caitlin Moran comment.

In the UK, women are permitted to wear short skirts, tight blouses, heels, etc., exposing quite alot of flesh. There is no restriction on men wearing similarly scant clothing, but they don't. Why?