Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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where i live you get competitive 'my daughers are more pious than yours' so they have to cover up even though they are 4/5 years old

It's a shame that so many look to God to dictate how they behave, that sexuality (all) is shameful and men cannot be trusted. Makes me think that people believe in a God that has no faith in people.

nailak, all of these niqab-wearing women you talk of may be active in the public sphere, but no matter how active they are, they are still functionally invisible if they are unrecognisable as they walk down the street. I know you will protest otherwise, but it is extremely hard to recognise someone when you cannot see their face, and their body shape and gait are concealed by clothing designed for that purpose.

The burkha is a bit of cloth. It is attitudes, behaviour and laws which are oppressive, not a bit of cloth.

If a woman is forced to wear a bit of cloth, she is being opressed. If a woman chooses to wear a bit of cloth she may well feel herself liberated against other behaviousr - leering etc.

nailak Thank you for your reply.

many of the women i know who wear niqaab are very active in the public sphere, and many muslim men, mostly the younger ones dont think of sisters who wear niqaab as invisible, as they still have a voice and are not afraid of using it.

Does the fact that they are wearing niqab by any chance actually give them more "authority" to speak up, at least in an environment where women have conventionally not had much of a voice in public? Are they in some way placing themselves beyond criticism by making their commitment to a certain view of religion so visible?

TootandCommon my only problem with this comment

If a woman is forced to wear a bit of cloth, she is being opressed. If a woman chooses to wear a bit of cloth she may well feel herself liberated against other behaviousr - leering etc.

is that if she chooses to avoid unacceptable male behaviour by hiding from it, then it reinforces the idea that male bad behaviour is the norm and not something to be challenged. Surely it is far better in the long term for all of us to confront inappropriate behaviour and change it rather than to hide from it and let it continue?

Slug - Yes, that is true.

And she may well feel liberated but true liberation will depend on easily accessible contraception, equal opportunities in all sorts of arena, an equitable justice system - and cultural factors. Just as it does for a woman not wearing a veil. And if those other wider and genuine freedoms are available, the bit of cloth itself, when worn according to free will, ceases to be oppressive per se.

I was interested in a thread a few weeks ago from a woman wondering what clothing to wear in Morocco. Lots of posters said how awful it was when they wore short sleeves etc to be leered at, and talked a lot about the disrespect of men looking at them. Nothing about the disrespect of appearing under-dressed accordong to the cultural norm.

slug Exactly!

TootAndCommon I live in Morocco, I wear short sleeves (tho not sleeveless) most of the year round. Enough Moroccan women do the same for me to feel that I am not under-dressed by local standards. Being leered at by some (not all!) men here has less to do with what individual women wear, than with a very skewed view on the part of some men, regarding women in general, and assumptions about the sexual freedom supposedly enjoyed by western women in particular.

i can recognise sisters in niqaab walking down the street.

long im talking about in the uk environment amongst other youngish people ie teens to mid 30s, so im not sure that would be considered an environment where women conventionally dont speak up? and in south asian communities women dominate a lot of the affairs, although , as in the majority of societies, they also face culturally specific oppression.

toot whatever way you look at it, those leering men are disrespectful and that is not justifiable.

slug i wouldnt agree that women in uk wear niqaab as a response to leering male behaviour? and why cant you wear niqaab and at the same time confront? like i said the niqaabis i know are very vocal, and are likely to stand up for a women they see being made uncomfortable by men around them on bus/train/ road etc, and challenge the behaviour with words?

oh and long wearing niqaab invites more criticism then it prevents, it is not the norm in the majority of muslim communities and many south asian families find it embarassing and hard to accept or understand, and constantly criticize their dds for wearing it.

Sorry - meant sleeveless.

There are loads of Mn threads about women leering at underdressed men. Is that disrespectful? There was a thread about a shirtless man at the school gate - he was variously mocked and reviled, though a few people said 'chill out'.

LWR Read again Riven's comment about there being 1.2 billion Muslims worldwide. You can't just quote an article by one women as if to say "See, that proves my point (or rather justifies my prejudices)".

There is always a dynamic to these threads that I find deeply unsettling. The demands for Muslim women present to explain/justify themselves, the then finding excuses to discount what we have to say anyway, the cherry picking of quotes to bolster previously held prejudices, the fact that they always end with the non-Muslim women congratulating themselves on how enlightening they are...

Anne im trying to not justify myself and leave myself out of the conversation....

am i failing miserably?

i would say leering at either sex is disrespectful.

Nailak - No, you're doing really well. It's just that these threads always have a set pattern anyway. It's more about people using feminism to justify their own prejudices then about actually listening to Muslim women. There's a whole internet out there, they could google and find so much written by Muslim women about these topics, but instead they'd rather bait someone on here, so that when you eventually lose patience, they can say "Well, I think you obviously have an attitude problem, that's why it is fine to dislike Muslim women and be hostile to them".

GothAnneGeddes You can't just quote an article by one women as if to say "See, that proves my point (or rather justifies my prejudices)".

I quoted one article which I read by chance this morning because it tied in with the theme of this thread, and I felt it represented an interesting perspective from within the Muslim world. And I resent the assumption that I did so in order to justify my prejudices.

I am sorry if you feel that these threads are nothing more than "demands for Muslim women present to explain/justify themselves, the then finding excuses to discount what we have to say anyway, the cherry picking of quotes to bolster previously held prejudices, the fact that they always end with the non-Muslim women congratulating themselves on how enlightening they are..."

I don't think anyone has said ""Well, I think you obviously have an attitude problem, that's why it is fine to dislike Muslim women and be hostile to them"."

Personally in spite of many years living in a Muslim society I am still unable to understand why women feel the need to veil. A generation ago, I saw how pleased women of my own age were to be freed from the restrictions of traditional clothing, and now I am baffled by the way in which a younger generation is returning to it. The arguments which I have heard put forward, which rely on a particular interpretation of the religious texts, do not convince me. If you feel that you can convince me of a good reason why they do so (whether or not you yourself wear niqab) please believe that I will listen.

alexpoli - re "makes me wonder how it can be so open to interpretation if it is such a clear book"

Quran is written very simply and clearly, in words that even feeble-minded can read and understand for themselves. It's almost as if God was disappointed at our level of understanding of Bible (full of vague stories and allegories) and has dumbed down the next book

It is not actually so open to interpretation, especially if you are even slightly familiar with the context (historical and cultural). Quran says that it is complete, perfect and all a Muslim needs to know. And covering the face is not in the Quran - this is fact. Therefore, veils and burqas are not part of Islam.

Re veils among Turks - I haven't lived in Turkey for over a decade, but would say no, they are not getting popular. Back in '90s, it was non-existent. Maybe once a year, you would see a veiled woman and she would certainly be accompanied by a clearly Arab-looking man in white robe-like Arab clothes - tourist, in other words.

Since then, we have had significant and deliberate Islamisation of the country, thanks to our lovely modern and moderate elected government of Islamists. During this time, I have seen a marked increase in headscarves but still have not seen a single veil (and actually just now struggled to remember the word for "veil" in Turkish, that is how far removed it is from daily life).

It is very strange if the veil is in fashion among Turks in the UK. Headscarf possibly, but surely not the veil.

Goth - Nobody is being hostile here. I think it is you who has a prejudice.

why isnt "because they want to and it makes them feel good" a reason?

I could be utterly and completely wrong here, and I'm sure I will be swiftly corrected if so, but I am wondering if this is a generational thing i.e. we hear how women were pleased to be able to leave off the face covering that their mothers wore but now find that their own daughters are taking up face covering.

Could we perhaps be looking at the age-old tradition of wanting to be different from our mothers? A variation on "Surely you are not going out looking like that?"

I hasten to add that I am not trying to trivialise it but wonder if it could explain some of the changes over generations.

"why isnt "because they want to and it makes them feel good" a reason?"

So you have stopped claiming religious reasons for the veil and burqa and now are down to "Because they want to". Good.

A lot of people want to take drugs that make them feel good. Yet they are outlawed. Government has decided that these people are making a wrong decision and has taken the decision power from their hands.

No doubt you can see where I am going with this.

I'm going to ditto Nailik here.

I'm not a Muslim, so I'm not overly clued up on the niqab, but surely, where it is worn out of choice, that choice should be respected?

Last time I checked, there was no rule in the Feminist Hand Book as to what a feminist can and can't wear. If there was, I've probably broken every rule going (I'm quite happy with my high heels, floaty dresses and short skirts, btw... and I can still fight the patriachy pretty effectively) No one should have their clothing choices dictated to them, be it being told what they can wear, nor what they can't wear...

You really can't compare an item of clothing to a drug, cote...

i have said that they believe it is required of them or is praiseworthy according to their valid interpretation if islam, as such they want to wear it and makes them feel good to wear it.

So Muslims are both "sisters" and 1:2 billion Muslims, so you stand together bit do MOTO represent a common belief. That stinks of tribalism and separatism, when it suits. You speak for all yet all cannot be criticised as one?