Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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I've always been torn with the burkha/niqab, as a libretarian I believe we should do/wear/behave in any way we choose.

But I think the last word of my previous sentence is the pertinent one 'choose', and after much thought I don't believe any woman who wears the burkha/niqab has truly 'choosen' to do so.

Any culture/religion/belief that deems women should cover themselves to protect them from men's uncontrolled sybaritic lusts needs to have a word with itself really.

Yes, actually, I can compare anything to anything, as long as there is a valid point of comparison.

That is what comparison is. Not saying two things are the same, but showing that they share something in common.

Is the burkha/niqab a male construct forced on women? I'm only asking because I don't know. My guess would be it is a male construct, however it is most likely seen by all women who wear it as being part of their culture (which it is, although most likely a male construct, very important to them) They should have the right to wear or not wear whatever they want. I actually find this tricky, my understanding is that women 'have' to wear it, but are happy to because its part of their culture, even if its a male constructed decision to have them cover up.
I find it equally as depressing that governments (constructed mainly of white men) are able to legislate on what women can and can't wear. I don't see a difference actually.
So OP my direct answer would be: I hate the idea of anyone telling a woman what she can and can't wear, but by banning it governments are doing just that. I wish it had never been 'invented' if thats the correct term. Excuse my lack of knowledge around some of the facts.

nailak - What do you mean "they believe it is required of them"? I read the Quran and so have you. Where exactly do you see that covering one's face is required?

Pam - This is not the first and only time that governments have legislated what we can and can't do with ourselves. Polygamy is illegal, even between consenting adults. Why?

i dont, but we both know there are valid differences of opinions in islam, and followers of islam tend to refer to more then Quran, so if others have different view points, i might not agree with them, but i also wont invalidate their belief or interpretation.

I think polygamy is illegal because governments want to use the 'family' as a means of social control Cote
I also know they legislate on drugs, seatbelts, childbirth,marriage etc everything that is the personal. Although obviously with regard to drugs there are lots of other issues, I understand that governments take the liberty away from people.
My point was trying to illustrate that a mere piece of cloth isn't whats liberating or oppressive, but the institutions, both cultural and governmental that force women to wear them or not to wear them.

I have to grind this discussion to a close now because WHATEVER THE OPINIONS, BELIEFS OR FEELINGS of anyone here;

No man ever, ever has to cover his face or body as a result of dogma, religious, personal, political belief or any other crazy feeling in his waters.

Ever.

what i dont understand is that is still using men as the bench mark that we should be compared against?

but anyway, men do have to cover their bodies.....

just less then women???

the mens awrah is between the navel and the knees, which is the same as the womens awrah in front of other women, according to my beliefs, others follow different intepretations of this so the womens awrah in front of other women is more.

spiderslegs, I would agree if you said the face. I think there are a number of dress requirements for men in many religions BUT I do not think there is a single culture/religion/practice whatever that makes a man feel that to cover his face is making him more worthy in the eyes of god.

So what is all that about?

Ok - I having thought about it, I retract that comment to the face. Tell me why?

Why?

What is shameful or inflammatory about my face?

Nothing, imo,

I wouldn't think those who wear it would say there face is shameful either.

Their

LWR - You don't get it do you? I don't have to convince you, I don't have to jump through any hoops you hold. This is exactly what I mean about the dubious power dynamics of these conversations.

This isn't somewhere where Muslim women can discuss our lives and those of the Muslim women we know, instead we have to explain and justify ourselves, knowing that whatever we say will be picked apart and spat back at us and all this is supposedly in the name of feminism.

Feminism and religion just don't mix. You cannot follow the path of both as the gatekeepers of the sins of men and champions of equality.

Couldn't disagree more. The only reason anyone follows religion, or has faith, is due to the construct of the patriarchal religion. It's a construct that suits man far more than woman, in the eyes of any God women do not fair well. Most prophets are male and central characters are male, unless they are in a supportive role to the man.

It always strikes me as odd that people suppose that they would have a relationship with God without the language of the religious scriptures, these scriptures are definitely misogynist. It's no coincidence that religious stories throughout the world have no over lap unless direct contact with eachother.

My faith directly inspired my feminism,Posie.I've lost the faith,I think,but keep the feminism.

"a mere piece of cloth isn't whats liberating or oppressive, but the institutions, both cultural and governmental that force women to wear them or not to wear them"

Burqa is a piece of cloth just like shackles are pieces of metal and the whip is just wood and rubber.

It is a tool of oppression, pure and simple. It is designed to make women faceless and shapeless. Not even second class people but inhuman in appearance.

of course faith can be compatible with feminism,

i dont think my interpretation and understanding is compatible with feminism, but others interpretations are.

however i have recently used a lot of arguments that i have learnt from the feminist boards in discussion with muslims, about the status of muslim women. and i think feminist discusson has really made me understand some things more clearly.

Feminism can help everyone. But religious codes are rarely in step with feminist ideology.,

GothAnneGeddes You seem to be particularly touchy here. I don't think that people have been throwing comments back at you. Personally I have visited the links you gave, but found that igotitcovered for example had lots of articles, but they were aimed at Muslims and did not make sense to an atheist like myself. Or they were judgemental towards the habits of non-Muslim women (one made reference to knowing that mini-skirts were wrong). So, since this is a discussion, people have come back to discuss and ask further questions. Not out of hostility, but out of interest.

Personally, I agree with Posie that feminism and patriarchal religion are incompatible. But if anyone who does not share that opinion would like to explain why, I am willing to listen and open to new ideas.

Cote Sorry, I think I used the wrong word in reference to the Turkish women. I see them wearing more and more headscarves, but NOT face veils. They used to all be bareheaded, now they cover their hair. Face veils are still a rarity. Some of the men have also started wearing those little white caps (I've no idea what they are called), but this has been very very recently.

obviously feminism and upholding the patriarchy are incompatible, the point is many islamic revivalists feel they are questioning and breaking the culturally patriarchal interpretations of religion.

Given that Mohammed was a man and apparently spoke the word of God, God is sexist.

And most of the Old Testament and Jesus too.

[waits for token women to be trotted out]