Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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From much earlier in the thread I know, but the Caitlin Moran comment I imagine referred to her saying something along the lines of "Are the men doing this? Is this taking up their time and mental energy? If not, there is some sexism going on."

On the head/hair/face/body covering: I wouldn't want to ban women from wearing this if they feel that they want to or if it makes them comfortable or makes them feel safe, but I would not want to encourage it any more than necessary, and I would want to work against indoctrinating future generations to feel that they should wear it.

I also think there are times when covering one's face is very counter-productive. I think that (for example) when passing through a passport check people should reveal their faces, or else what is the point of a passport photo?

Trills - Niqab wearers will show their faces at the request of security people, I've never heard otherwise. In fact I'm a bit worried that you think the world is so supposedly pandering to niqab wearing women that they would get away with not showing their faces.

What is more then necessary? And how exactly would woulld you, as someone who is not a member of the Muslim community work against 'indoctrinating' future generations? What gives you such import that you are most definitely right and know better then us scarf wearing sorts? Is because you are properly Western and civilised and Muslims won't be until they are just like you?

I know you think that your comment was very reasonable, but it is loaded with assumptions that you really need to consider.

Btw, whoever it was upthread who said that wearing niqab isn't done for religious reasons, this is a very tiresome argument and you might as well say "Stupid Muslim women, I know your religion better then you do". It's arguing in bad faith.

Whenever I see a woman walk past wearing the full burka, something inside me dies.

Taken from facebook, a discussion about Islam)
(I commented here about Islam has been used by people to persecute, but must bring a lot of joy for many uniting people and so on)
I agree with you and your comment but only as far as the Christianity is concerned. Jesus was a young man who single-handedly stood against the oppressors, inviting people to love each other and cherish life. He was an advocate for the poor and the oppressed. He was never in a position of authority, power nor wealth. He never had an army and never raged a war against any body and yes, his followers, mainly the Catholic Church did. History never forgets the brutality of church through out the Europe and the crusader wars. But, I can not say the same for Mohammed, the founder of Islam. Mohammed in fact was a ruler who established a new regime of governance powered by an Islamic army. He personally raged war against many Arab tribes and non-Muslim citizens who had done nothing but tried to keep up with their own faith. Typically the defenceless, defeated clan had their men killed; their women auctioned off and sold to the higher bidder and their kids taken as slaves if they did not submit to Islam. Unfortunately the life wouldn?t be that easy even if they did submit to Islam. Mohammed successors continued his legacy but at much harsher scale when they raged wars with neighbouring countries, started with Iran, then called Persia ? an Empire with thousands of years history and civilization and the Zoroastrian religion, believing in one god only. Iranians wondered why the savage Arab?s god was any better than theirs considering what Islam army did subsequent to its conquest of Iran.

Today if you see torture, stoning, mutilation, prisoners rape, discrimination of women and other religions? faithful committed by Taliban or other Islamic countries is not invented by the ordinary Muslims rather it was practiced during Mohammed?s reign and in fact, he established them.

This is from an Iranian who has turned his back on Islam, in fact I don't know an Iranian who hasn't.....usually with the pain of be rejected by their family.

What about Mohammed then Riven, was he a peaceful man, as reading the Koran there is a lot of wrath and fury.

It's loaded with exactly the same sorts of assumptions that you get on the Feminist board all the time, when people are said to have been indoctrinated into following a certain way of dressing or into feeling that they must wear makeup based on society's expectations.

People say "it's my choice" and others say "you are not making that choice freely" and yet others may say "you making that choice is unhelpful to other women".

(in this case I do not know enough to say if the third part is right but the second certainly is)

GothAnneGeddes I am not trying to say that I understand Islam better than Muslim women. What I am saying is that I don't get it. On the one hand I have Muslim women telling me that the full face veil is not required in Islam and the quran does not mention it. On the other hand, I am being told that Muslim women wear it for religious reasons. What are those religious reasons? If the quran doesn't require it, then what makes these women think that god will look on them more favourably (or whatever) if they cover their faces? What gives them this idea? I'm genuinely trying to work it out, I wasn't trying to suggest I know Islam better than Muslim women do.

Riven regarding your reply to Posie - I thought that stoning (for adultery?) and the amputation of the hand for theft was an accepted punishment in Islam. Is that not the case? You hear about these punishments via the media, but I don't know where the rulings come from. Not the quran, then?

I agree about the Old Testament being violent. I don't understand how anyone can worship the god it portrays, there's so much violence and petty jealousies and downright bizarre things.

I wonder if the opression in some more extreme Islamic states came about as a result of the covering worn by women? I mean if you rarely see women's face (other than family members) would it not create a suspicion and fear of women & their sexuality? It must be hard to fully assert yourself in a society where as a sex you are not seen.

I was simply pointing out what someone, an Iranian academic, had said about Islam.

I had an Iranian boyfriend in my early twenties, his family had fled Iran back in teh 90's (his sister was hung) and he became an Australian citizen. He was a proud Muslim although he did drink and do lots of things he wasn't meant to do but he absolutely hated the leaders of Iran. I asked him what life waslike for women there and he said as a women you wouldn't have a life there.

Can I just add that all the Iranian women I have met (not in Iran as I've never been there) have been intelligent & feisty women as well as Muslims, although none of them covered themselves at all. Not sure if this is relevevant to the discussion but thought I would mention it!

Trills - damned if we do, damnbed if we don't

Rivenwithoutabingle & Nailak, can I just ask if you wear a niqab and in your experience do the majority of women (in the UK) do so out of choice? Also referring to an earlier post about the schoolgirl who wanted to wear one but wasn't allowed and her classmates who really didn't want to have to, do you think that the school was right to not allow it? Good luck with your kitchen

I don't think native English converts' views & choices are representative of the majority of female Muslim population in the UK.

alexpoli - re "If the quran doesn't require it..."

Quran definitely doesn't require covering faces. There are such detailed instructions on this subject, that God wanted women's faces to be covered, he would have just added it to the list.

"...then what makes these women think that god will look on them more favorably if they cover their faces?"

It's competitive subservience a la "He says modesty is good. He says covering head and bosom is better. Therefore I will be bestest if I cover up everything"

" I thought that stoning (for adultery?) and the amputation of the hand for theft was an accepted punishment in Islam."

Stoning is definitely not part of Islam, for the simple reason that it is mentioned nowhere in the Quran and even contradicts the punishment for adultery in the Quran (100 lashes).

Cutting hands for theft is unfortunately in the Quran so part of Islam, but this practice has thankfully been abandoned in many Muslim countries.

All this is like the Inquisition of Christianity in the Dark Ages. Bible has a single sentence saying "Suffer not a witch to live, and tens of thousands of women are executed for having a cat or a mole on their faces. Christianity survive the Dark Ages and Islam will survive these days of fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran.

This morning I read an op-ed piece in a Moroccan weekly by a woman journalist who was worrying about the increasing number of teenage girls wearing the headscarf. This seemed to her to be negating the progress made by Arab women, in which rejection of the veil or headscarf played a large part: think of the symbolic force of Huda Shaarawi removing the veil on returning to Egypt from a congress of the Women's International Suffrage Alliance in 1923, or Lalla Aicha, daughter of Sultan Mohamed V of Morocco, appearing in public without her hair covered to give a speech on women's education in Tangiers in 1947.
So women like this journalist are afraid that their own daughers will find themselves back in a way of life that women have only recently escaped from, just in the past couple of generations. If women are supposed to be invisible as soon as they enter the public sphere, it is easy to refuse to take them seriously.
So for many older women, who were themselves delighted to get rid of the restrictions of headscarf or veil, it is hard to understand why girls should choose now to adopt these clothes. There seem to be several reasons. The religious reason is one, but it is actually very dubious, given that neither the Quran or the hadith provide clear indication that women should cover their hair or their face, and very many believing Muslim women feel no need to do so. Another is that it simply a fashion copied from the Middle East. And finally there is the perception that girls and women who wear the headscarf or full veil are less subject to insults from men in public.
Which brings me to the reason which I feel uncomfortable about the veil and headscarf: what does this say about men? What are women thinking about men if they feel they need to cover up so much in front of them? And what assumptions are men making about women who do not cover their hair and even their face?

LWR. Completely agree, I fear for my DSs when they enter secondary school, instantly some of the girls will have prejudice against them as white males.

CoteDAzur I love the expression "competitive subservience". I've seen it in operation among DH's nieces. Though not all of them, thankfully. Some of them actually read the religious texts and ask where the others are getting these ideas from. :)

Thanks for that, Cote D'Azur.

I take your point about competitiveness. So it basically boils down to typical human nature. Muslims I have known in real life have told me that the quran is a clear book, so you would have thought god would have included the detail if he wanted to! It also makes me wonder how it can be so open to interpretation if it is such a clear book, but that is another issue entirely.

If I remember correctly, you are of Turkish origin? I bring it up as I notice that the Muslim women in this area, all ethnic Turks, have been wearing the headscarf more and more. When I first came here, you hardly ever saw a veil, now it is commonplace. Has this become a trend in Turkey too?

On your last point, I am rather tempted to hope that no religion will survive that much longer with all the trouble they cause!

darling, all the muslims in the uk that i know that wear niqaab, convert or not, did so against the wishes of their families and communities. in south asian cultures, which make up the most muslims in the uk, it is not a normal thing to do.

i do not wear niqaab. i do not see the necessity.
i think that if the school girl felt that strongly and she wasnt allowed to wear it at school, she should have considered alternative schooling such as home ed, there are large muslim home ed networks.

there are different intepretations of Quran and hadith.

long way i would accept your last point to be true. some muslim men do make unfounded and ignorant assumptions about those who do not cover, and stupidly can think that the commandment to lower their gaze doesnt apply.

lets consider secularization as a response to modernization. initially, due to secularization religious observance declined, but then due to consumerism and market choice which also applied to the realm of spiritual beliefs, religious or spiritual adherence stopped declining but took on different forms, so we observe a rise in paganism, wicca, celtic or new age religions, which followers would say are a continuation of an ancient, or older belief system, we see a rise in pentecostal and evangelical christianity, and we see an islamic revival.

this islamic revival could be seen as similar to celtic, aspirational indianism, or paganism as these women choose to adhere to a historical spiritual tradition of their region?

as for the invisibility of women once they enter the public sphere, i agree this has been the case, but i dont think it has to be. many of the women i know who wear niqaab are very active in the public sphere, and many muslim men, mostly the younger ones dont think of sisters who wear niqaab as invisible, as they still have a voice and are not afraid of using it. the older generation traditionally dont listen to anything the younger generation have to say, if it be about niqaab, or if their daughter/son wants to marry a different ethnicity etc and uses islam to demonstrate the permissibility of this, they still think they know better.