Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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Riven is right, this is about faith, you won't find logic there. Faith, like love and forgiveness are states of grace that arise spontaneously and cannot be willed into being (I paraphrase Dorothy Rowe).

I am not religious so cannot understand it. But intensely dislike it because of the practical restrictionsitimposes on being able to move about feely, drive a car, feel cool on hot weather, etc, etc.

alex, i think you have to accept that many muslims interpret the verse in the Quran to mean they have to cover there hair/face and they also follow hadith, not only QUran.

sports, are you seriously suggesting that people born and bred here do not contribute to the shaping of the culture?

when people started wearing punk clothing, was that wrong as they werent having the courtesy to conform to culture?

when people in the 70s started wearing mini skirts was that wrong as they werent having the courtesy to conform to culture?

these women are not some kind of foreigners, they are British, most of them born and raised here.

if you were born in a culture in which it was the norm to cover your face, but you didnt want to, then would you conform, or as part of the culture would you think it was fine if you didnt and there was no laws against it?

if there were laws against it and you felt strongly, would you then fight against it?

nailak - I'm not sure if that is internaliastion or not, I would assume it probably was. I had breast implants at the age of 23 (I'm not 31). I always had very small breast, 34 AA cup and felt very out of proportion. I was and still am very happy with my breasts but whereas I always said it was 'for me' I admit it was more to fit in with society & looking more womanly & 'the norm'.

I wonder if both extremes of culture, i.e getting women to cover themselves completely and getting women to reveal themselves so as to sexualy attract/exite men are aspects born out of fear of women. In teh first instance fear of womens sexuality and in teh second fear of womens intelligence?

I lived in Thailand for many years from when I was quite young and there was a real sense of modesty there. It wasn't good to show your shoulders, dress immodestly, drink or smoke and I conformed but it took me quite a while to shake off that sense of shame & being judged I felt when doing any of these things.

The vitamin D issue...

Whatever your skin tone, you cannot get enough vitamin D from sunlight if you live North of Birmingham. You have to get some of your vitamin D from food.

Rickets is more common in children of South East Asian descent than white children in the UK because:

1. Of covering up with clothing.
2. white skin makes it easier to get vitamin D from sun exposure.
3. People of South East Asian descent are more likely to be lactose intolerant and European countries traditionally get a lot of their calcium intake from dairy products.

So it is more of an issue of making sure that people are educated and know that if your child is covered up with clothing or sun cream, you might need to look at your diet or consider taking a supplement.

hands down some muslim men are afraid of womens sexuality, and intelligence aswell, and they use this too oppress women and spout viewpoints that sound ridiculous to a lot of muslim women who are educated about another version of Islam, which they believe to be more correct.

I mean South Asia, not South East Asia.

nailak - I think here in the UK womens sexulaity, although 'accepted' is used against them to a certain extent & there intelligence often undermined, primarlily by the media and advertising.

I think religion all over the world is often used as a stick with which to beat women, who can argue with the word of God?

but this is not about religion, the patriarchy exists in societies not based on religion,

anything is used as an excuse by the patriarchy to oppress women, not just religion,

and tbh there are plenty of issues where muslim women will argue teeth and nail against muslim men, as they feel they are preventing them from their islamicaly enshrined rights, such as rights to education etc

they will argue against other peoples interpretation of the word of God

nailak - why is there so much oppression of women in Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia?

Yes I agree it does exist, just in a different form. I was thinking about Catholocism aswell when I wrote that.

Are you a Muslim?

Goth - Since then, those two women were indeed fined, if you are interested.

yes, i assumed you was aware of that

Any 'uniform' be it religious or fashion sets you apart from the rest, it's tribalism. The reason that women cover stems from needing to protect me from their lust. Many of my Iranian friends think it's oppressive. British Muslims, especially converts, have no idea what it's like to feel that oppression and so don't associate it with oppression.

I do get so bored about the Western dress argument, there is no code or cultural norm, it is diverse.....one woman wears crop tops and mini skirts and another an M&S twinset.

It is not about dress code but about mindset. The idea behind the burqa, that women should be hidden from view, is abhorrent to the Western mind.

On some TV documentary they asked a covered-up woman in Sudan (?) and she said it was because women are so precious to their husbands, their faces and bodies are covered like a precious jewel from other peoples' view.

But when it comes down to it, I cannot think that covering the face is right. We are all unique - we recognise our parents, family and friends, (and enemies!) by their unique faces. Faces are meant to be displayed.

So could it be down to male sexual jealousy?

Miranda - That woman was only parroting an extremist interpretation of the Quran, which says women should cover up their valuables/ornaments. Considering that this was a time when women were attacked for their valuable jewellery, it seems fairly obvious that this is referring to concealing jewellery when out and about. However, some claim that a woman's eyes, nose, hands, feet etc are all part of her ornaments and so she should be hidden away from view completely.

Yes it could be down to male sexual jealousy. And in forced cases probably is, not about religious beliefs, but this.

I think when people don't know much about Islam or Muslims in general & only hear about the extreme examples of oppression such as women not being able to drive in saudi Arabia, FGM and forced marriage and when they see women covered from head to toe assume that the women is being forced to hide away from the world just for being a woman. I think this is why there is such hostility and fear.

Well exactly DarlingDuck.

I am not a religious scholar, but I do try to keep informed and watch the news, listen to the radio, read articles and books - Aayan Hirshi Ali was particularly interesting.

I think I know 'enough' to have views and to understand that sadly a great deal of the world seems to interpret the Muslim religion in a way that is used to brutalise and oppress women.

Of course that is going to impact on me when I see a woman in the West covering up. I am not going to automatically assume that she is making a free and informed choice.

I remember the teenage girl who wanted the right to cover up at her school in Luton. Wasn't she represented by Cherie Blair? The headmistress said that she was ok with the trousers and tunic but she resisted anything else because a lot of the girls begged her to - it was only the school uniform policy that stopped their fathers and brothers insisting they wore more restrictive clothes.

In every newspaper/tv picture of that schoolgirl, standing behind her was her brother. I do still wonder just how much that legal action was based on her own desire to cover up and how much was the product of the wishes of her (male) family members.

nailak There is a fundamental difference between your examples of transient dressing fads such as punk, minis etc. They are what is known as 'fashion' and fashion is not a cultural departure. It is not religious, it is not an article of faith, it is not a requirement (even if a mistaken one) by religion. If you are comparing the wearing of punk clothes and minis to covering you are saying that the burqa/niquab is merely a fashion like any other. I thought it had a more fundamental meaning than that.

There has never been a culture of face covering in this country - not even nuns, the most fundamentally religious in our culture covered their faces.

And I don 't understand your last point as I have already stressed I am against the state or the family telling anyone how they should dress.

I see you do not attempt to answer my queries as to the logic behind covering up. It would be nice to get an explanation.

Maybe it wasn't the best example, but I was trying to respond to the point that you made about following the customs of others when in other countries, and trying to explain that these are people in their own country which are choosing to dress in a way which is not the norm, which has always occurred and included contravorsy and often gained disapproval.

Why do women cover their faces? Some believe it is.a requirement in times of fitnah, others believe it is not required but is praiseworthy. And the women I.know who.wear niqaab tend to be more involved in community work, voluntary work and politics then what is standard. They also do not mind taking it off if required to work. One example is a sister who works as breast feeding counsellor, and felt the benefit in helping others breast feed was more then the draw backs of not wearing while at work.

She volunteers BTW