Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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I've been thinking and I'm not sure how to put this point across but here goes!
Women (some, not all) in the UK are set apart from men by our culture of expecting them to look a certain way, i.e sexually appealing to men with make up, hair extensions, high heels etc.. Women in Islam are (somewhat) set apart by covering their faces & bodies or heads.

They are opposite ends of the spectrum but equally devisive & patriacal, if that makes any sense?!

How do men dress in Saudi or Oman? I have only seen photographs and videos of men dressed in long white robes with their heads covered.

KRITIQ, if you think men don't wear scanty clothing, you clearly haven't been to the pub on a hot day.

I live in Brum and often have niqab hypotheticals bouncing round in my head . As you do.

I reckon that on one day a year, ALL women in the UK should just put on a full face-mask/black robe combo, and just go about their business as if nothing unusual was happening. Now that would really fuck with their minds...

If men in those countries where the burkah is worn were forced to wear it for one day see how quickly the burkah would be consigned to history.

If women want to cover themselves up of free choice (and amazingly some do seem to want to be invisible) that's up to them but any man who lays down a rule as to how women should dress should be told to bog off as it's none of their damn business.

KRITIQ - men don't wear revealing/skimpy clothes for the same reason they don't wear make-up & get hair extensions - well most of them don't anyway - it's something women do to look 'sexy' and attractive to men.

I wear skimpy clothes when it's hot in order to keep cool but unfortunately thats not often the case here in the UK!

DarlingDuck - I do agree with your comment about the two extremes.

Whether getting it all out or covering it all up, you're still letting the issue of 'what men will think' control the way you go about your life, and the image you present to the world.

A proper feminist (with books and stuff) might be able to phrase that better!

so do you think it is not possible that a woman puts on nice clothes and make up for herself/other women or nice underwear that noone will see just as it makes her feel good?

or is that internalization of patriarchal oppression again?

There was a very good cartoon in the Sunday Times last year, showing two women walking down the street. One was fully covered with only a tiny slit for her eyes, the other wearing hardly anything at all, micro mini, stripper heels etc.

The caption was - which do you find more offensive?

I do find it sad and scary that women will truss themselves up in all sorts of skimpy clothes, if they are doing it out of some feeling of pressure from society at large becausevthis is how women should be, this is how men want to see us.

I agree, as mother of a daughter, this is an issue that needs confronting.

but I think it isn't helpful to automatically conflte the to issues. Women in this country don't risk being beaten or killed if the fail to wear short skirts or show cleavage.

But there are sadly many ountriesin the word where a woman would be beaten or killed if she went out with her face uncovered, if she tried to go to school or stand or parliament etc, etc.

Of course wearing the niqab or burka does not not by itself prove that the wearer is a victim of oppression. But I struggle to think of a single country which both enforces the wearing of facial covering and has a respectable record on treating women like humans. Thus this kind of dress is very clearly linked to issues of oppression, brutality and misogyny.

I don't mind what women wear as long as it is their own choice, not what is foisted upon them by men using religion or their own views to force matters either way. The thing is it has to be the woman's choice. Nobody else has the right as far as I am concerned.

Spero, there are also countries such as Algeria, France, turkey etc where a woman would. Find it hard to get an education or job in niqaab / hijaab.

And of course any feminist would say those being forced are oppressed, even those who choose to wear niqaab would say that if a woman was in fear of her life if she didn't wear it then it is an oppression.

But is it an oppression or is it possible to be w liberation in countries such as uk, pakistan, America etc where they have choice and culturally do not wear Burka / niqaab

For me, it's got nothing to do with the actual clothing, but everything to do with whether it's a genuine free choice or something that has been forced on a women, either by law or cultural expectations.

And because the wearing of these items is so tied up in cultural expectations, I don't think it's possible to get a clear picture on whether a woman is being oppressed or liberated. Even within a single society, one women might find it oppressive, and another find it liberating.

I'd like to cover up more than I do, I think it would be very liberating. But I'm not a muslim, so it would be 'weird' There's a cultural expectation on me not to cover myself up.

So, there's no easy answer, and until all women are free from oppression of any kind, we'll never know.

Here is a really good article on what life is like now for Muslim women in France who wear the niqab (face veil). Really worth a read:

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/19/battle-for-the-burqa

That was an interesting read, GothAnneGeddes, thanks for that.

What I find missing from all of this is some explanation as to WHY women who choose to wear the burqua do so. Why choose to hide your face? It is not for religious reasons, as the religion does not require it. (And if it did, I would be asking why women believe it to be true).

Although I have known many Muslim women, (and have had some very lively debates!) I have never known one who covers her face.

I have been on many burqua threads on here, and I have made no secret of being an atheist and coming at the issue from that perspective. But in all these debates no burqua-clad woman has ever really explained her position properly, over than saying it made her feel "closer to god". How Why? I don't get it.

try here alex www.igotitcovered.org/

When France put their ban in place I wondered how many women were freed from being forced to wear them by their men compared to how many were upset by their losing the chance to wear a covering if they wanted to.

Thanks for the link, that was an interesting article.

But that picture of the two women with Nekkaz I found chilling - that looked even worse than the afghani burkha, how could they even see?

I guess for me it is the covering of the face I find hard to deal with, whether it be by burkha or balaclavas.

Makes lipreading difficult though which wasn't something I had thought of until a friend who lipreads as a way of coping pointed out.

I read an interesting article ages ago saying that wearing sun glasses in doors was a sign of psycopathy!

I don't have any issue with someone wearing sunglasses outside, inside is creepy. But I have found that covering the mouth does make it much more difficult for me to feel comfortable communicating with people.

I have only ever had one client who massively covered up, including gloves when she alone with me in a conference room. I found that very difficult, maybe I am a bit deaf and rely more on lip reading than I thought?

I would much rather email than have a phone conversation, maybe that is part of it.

I had a quick look at the igotitcovered website and I can understand why people chose to cover up if it makes them feel they are submitting to god - I guess nuns habits are pretty similar.

But I think I will remain very uneasy about face coverings for all sorts of reasons. I am equally uneasy about the state imposing bans on what people chose to wear. It's a difficult issue for me. I think I would be very upset if my daughter ever wished to cover up.

Having had a look at the igotitcovered website, I am still none the wiser.

There is a poem saying "I cover because I am a Muslim" - I assume she means just a headscarf, as a face covering is not required in Islam.

Another article talks about a woman covering because all she cares about is her Lord (I presume it means god). But the message from god as expressed in the quran does not require face covering, so again this makes no sense.

Another article says it is because the woman is able not to care what other people think. I think that covering yourself completely means you care very much. So much so that you keep it all hidden away.

So it still makes no sense to me.

I have no problem with the state imposing basic rules on dress codes. We cannot walk down the street completely naked and in my view being completely covered from head to toe is just the other extreme of that. I simply think the state should legislate against the extremes, but no more than that.

I am by instinct a libertarian on this issue - neither the state nor the family should dictate what an individual wears.

But, as a logical (I think) person I am also baffled by the motives of those who want to cover up. Why?

Is it because they are modest? Can't be, because the effect of covering up is to draw attention to yourself in the West.

Is it because they want to hide their beauty? If so, why do so many wear eye make up at the same time then?

Is it because they want God"s approval? Surely God has enough on his/her plate what with overseeing wars, starvation and disease to bother about whether someone wears a particular dress?

Is it an overt display of piety? That doesn't fit with modesty.

Against the wearing of it is the possibility of serious vitamin D deficiency and the restrictions on sight and movement, + the security issues involved in hiding your identity.

When I worked in countries where the custom was for women to cover their arms, hair, legs etc. I was careful to have the courtesy to observe their culture. Why does courtesy not extend in the opposite direction? Having said that, my own courtesy would still say if women want to cover it is their right however rude I personally find it.

But what is the attraction and what is the rationale? Can anyone explain the logic, please?