Silly question maybe - can a man be a feminist?

[biryani]

After a few glasses last night I got into a discussion with a male aqcuaintance about childcare etc. This man claims he's a feminist because he shares childcare etc with his wife, and has read Naomi Woolf and Andrea Dworkin. I said something like " you can't be a feminist because you're a man!", meaning that feminism arises out of a specifically female take on the world and that a man cannot experience this, being a man, and therefore cannot be a feminist as such although he may empathise and understand female issues.

now sober, I'm not sure. Who's right?

the biblical reference to 'a camel passing through the eye of a needle, and a rich man ascending to heaven' seems applicable here.

Not that camels need to be liquidised, obv., but the degree of difficulty is analogous for a man to be a feminist. IMHO.

Like it Daisy.

I used to think, yeh male feminists, where's the harm. Then I met a few and saw what they actually do.

I do know a few pro-feminist men. They are entirely different. They do not try to tell you how to do feminism, shout about their views, tell you you are wrong. They shut the fuck up in feminist spaces, but are there to do what is needed when asked. And they challenge other men. They are aware of their privilege and act like it.

dadof2ofthem is a great example of why I gave up on 'male feminists' a while ago.

Blimey, Daisy, I like the cut of your jib

So.... some men claim to be feminists in order to try to get one over on women or to be patronising or smug or to get you into bed.

And that means that men by definition cannot be feminists?

That doesn't logically follow.

If your logic worked, it would mean that: some people pretend to be Catholic in order to get into the good local school, therefore no-one is really a Catholic.

By all means be suspicious of people who try to ingratiate themselves until you have seen how they back it up, but I would refer back to hatwoman at the beginning of the thread:
a feminist is someone - anyone - who believes in equal rights for men and women. I know plenty of men who are feminists.
including some who would declare themselves as feminists and some who wouldn't

I like this

Got to join in the chorus - Daisy - wonderful posts. "His only credentials are that he's read a bit of de Beauvoir. Well I've read Mein Kampf. So fucking what? Doesn't make me a Nazi."

In fairness, it's good to see that some men are thinking about feminism, want to engage and be involved and can spare the time away from masturbating to pornography to air their views and feign innocence and bafflement at why feminists might think they are a) wind-up merchants b) chronic attention-seekers c) completely wrong wrong wrong.

Feminists don't fight for equality. Feminist fight for equality for women. They fight male oppression of women. That does make it, at best, tricky for a man to be a feminist.

dadof2
you are clearly not understanding what ive said.

All I can hear is Seinfeld's Elaine Benes's voice - 'Russell, you're part of the problem.'

I would still be dubious of the age bit as well.

It's even easier to proclaim to be feminist, as a bloke, when you are young,and essentially none of the great challenges of life haven't met you yet.

When push comes to shove about earnings,

about child care,

about who's parents should get most care in their old age,

when menopause hits,

or when choices re dds and dss education and events have to be made,

about how well you stand up to your 'principles' against your misogynistic father and poss grandfather,

about who you 'indulge' to progress your social standing ,or your career.

I also move in (or have moved in) blokey circles, and it is amazing how even the most 'liberal' sounding bloke can wither at the least invitation.

I do endorse ALL of what Daisy writes and I thank her for it.

yes-sorry Daisy-thankyou and thankyou

and whilst I am on the roll,

a mother's experience of PND

a woman's right to anger

a right to have bizarre sexual fantasies about alan Rickman (?)

a right to have very close female friends and NOT to be jealous or insecure about them.

To misquote Kipling " then one day you will be a feminst man, my son".

i give up, sorry reality

You're leaving dadof2ofthem?

But why? When you're such a bit ol' feminist and all.

Never mind. I expect they're showing the Red Shoe Diaries or something on Channel 5 at about this time. Happy wanking you wanker.

AwesomePan - Alan Rickman? Bloody hell. There's being a feminist and then there's just being a big old deviant.

dadof2 will be pm'ing his wanking habits to reality as we speak

way to go !

Daisy - just don't see it!! thin, ill-looking, nooo idea why women see anything, apart from a nice voice. Am now switching between MN and Beyonce at Glasonbury. She's popping up the M1 later. We like to keep our relationship private. ( or at least she does ).

My two cents, on a simple level, of course you can be a feminist and a man, just as you can be anti-racist, and be white (or whatever the majority culture happens to be).

However, male feminists have two problem.

1. Because some of the differences between men and women aren't all just cultural, men have some differences, one of which (for straight men) is that they're attracted to naked, beautiful women, which gets them into trouble.

2. A lot of feminists are at best suspicious of men, and some actively dislike them (or whether it's only male culture they dislike, is a point of debate).

It's not the attraction to women that's the problem, it's the way it's expressed. It is possible to treat women as equal human beings even when you feel sexually attracted to them.

Is it really? Given that we live in a society where near naked women are plastered on billboards, when a man has a glance and is attracted only to the image, he's objectifying the women. That's his natural urge. He's not thinking about her feelings or her opinions on macroeconomics.

Bennifer Mon 27-Jun-11 09:00:32
"...male feminists have two problem....Because some of the differences between men and women aren't all just cultural, men have some differences, one of which (for straight men) is that they're attracted to naked, beautiful women, which gets them into trouble."

Being attracted to "naked ,beautiful" women (way to go on the whole objectifying women thing, right there, Bennifer) does not "get you into trouble".

You "get into trouble" (well, you don't actually, because we don't really like punishing rapists in this country) if you harrass, assault or rape a woman (clothed, naked, beautiful or otherwise). I'm struggling to understand why this is such a big "problem" for male feminists.

Actually, maybe I don't struggle to understand it. Maybe it's completely fucking clear.