Silly question maybe - can a man be a feminist?

[biryani]

After a few glasses last night I got into a discussion with a male aqcuaintance about childcare etc. This man claims he's a feminist because he shares childcare etc with his wife, and has read Naomi Woolf and Andrea Dworkin. I said something like " you can't be a feminist because you're a man!", meaning that feminism arises out of a specifically female take on the world and that a man cannot experience this, being a man, and therefore cannot be a feminist as such although he may empathise and understand female issues.

now sober, I'm not sure. Who's right?

Absolutely. Some think they are separate from the rest of the men because they see some of what the patriarchy does while others don't. But their involvement can dilute feminism as women are aware of their presence, their 'help' and that impacts on how feminism develops. Got to take the male view into account, etc.

For some though, I think it's the whole idea of ownership - that they can own feminism by making their voices as important, as equal as women's. It's just another form of male control. Some women are happy with that but I think they can't see the extent of the social conditioning that makes them value male views, seek male approval. The number of posters on MN, when it's a feminist or gender topic that say they're going off to ask what their male DPs think shows this.

But some just use it as yet another way to get sexual access to women (Dr Right-on)...

I think saying men can't be feminists is problematic. I like it when men think and behave like feminists, and if they self-identify as feminists imo that's great. So much the better for us; so much the worse for all the idiots who want to pretend feminism is just some little women's thing that we can get on quietly with while we do the dishes.

well put Floyjoy.
yep-this is what im thinking also.
having said this though-although im ok with saying this[and thinking this]
it does make me a bit uncomfatable as i get the feeling sometimes that im somehow in the wrong-a underlying feeling[from others-no one in patticular]
but surely?if one woman/10 women/100 women feels this-is this not ignoring a woman/women over men?
and i find this really odd in feminism!

sparky - is it maybe because feminism focuses on equality and challenges discrimination and therefore saying/thinking men can't in reality be feminists seems to go against that? I've seen arguments like that on MN. But it doesn't. Daisy drew a comparison with race saying that she would 'not presume that my "white perspective" holds just as much weight and authority' as someone's from a minority ethnic lived experience. I have no problem with jobs being reserved for people from particular groups (DV staff for a female project being female, for instance) and I think it's a similar thing. It's not saying 'don't support us', it's just saying, 'you're not actually, in relaity, us'.

It's also about sensitivity. I don't know what it is like to have a severe disabilty and I might support disabled rights but I wouldn't assume that I can take on the same position as a disabled person in a political movement for disabled rights. That would be crass. It's the same for minority ethnic group issues, feminist issues, etc.

yep-i agree floyjoy[............"youre not actually..in realaity..us]
yes i think Daisy drew a excellent comparrison.
i dunno Floyjoy-im finding this aspect very difficult.
on one hand i suppose its a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater
[accepting that a man can be a feminist]
but on the other hand it feels a bit like"why are you here-its because of you that im here in the first place"!
or-"are we supposed to now be grateful that men are calling themselves feminists"!
i know this is a bit harsh and i dont want to be unkind to anyone-its just how i feel.
i dunno-maybe too many years of seeing mens privallege.

"too many years of seeing mens privallege" - yep, that just gets tiring! And boring, just so bored with it. Feel like asking, haven't you had enough male privilege now?!

I don't know, some men are, I'm sure, very genuine, but I suppose the problem is that you have to come to general conclusions that might seem a bit harsh to indivuduals.

I am going to go off and scratch my head some more and have a long think...

i think there is a larger, more tolerent 'silent marjority' here on MN but there scared to say anything for fear of the hardliners insults and general virtiol. well done reality for a considerd liberal opinion, allthough now you may think twice about posting anything other than hardline feminism in the future, i hope not.
i continue to call myself a feminist, doesnt mean i will go on marches , and it doesnt mean anyone should be grateful or think what a great guy i am. it's a conclusion i draw from the opinions i have, thats all.

well if youre on about me dadof2-sorry i cant stroke youre ego.
actually ive been talking about how i feel as a woman in feminism and how i am finding some aspects of feminism difficult.
unless we talk about these things-it causes splits.
the reason im finding it difficult is because of my own past/present with men and male privalege.
rather than sitting back and thinking"well the men can fuck off"-im trying to discuss it.
im sorry that you cant understand this-but you wont understand this as you are a male with privalege.
[this isnt a personal dig at you dadof2]-but unless you understand this-how can you call youreself a feminist?
you need to understand dadof2!its not just about running in and saying"yes i agree with equality"-its about understanding how women have been damaged by male privalege!
anyone can give lipservice-but its understanding thats needed.

A feminist who watches porn, and who doesn't try to counter sexism is like a vegetarian who thinks meat eating is really morally wrong, and doesn't eat meat except fish
and chicken
and pork
and beef
and duck
and lamb
and venison
and ostrich
and turkey...

but sometimes, when they remember, they feel REALLY bad about doing it.

It might make them feel like a vegetarian, but it's not exactly vegetarian behaviour, is it?

Oh, and I'm not a 'hardline' feminist, btw. I'm probably a lot more liberal than most here. But that doesn't mean I think the label 'feminist' is meaningless.

Like it, blackcurrants.

goodness sparky that last post sounded allmost like an olive branch.

i can talk about whatever you like , we can discuss it , for sure , but quite frankly your previous posts have an air of 'ban the man' bout them and you seem pretty clear that being a feminist is a birthright not a collection of opinions and ideas that anyone can hold.

not all feminists are anti-erotica. dont speak for all feminists when actually you speak for you and your hardline freinds .

did someone say upthread that i come here lableing myself as a groovy feminist, wanting gratitutde and oh, what a great guy? .......belive me, the abuse and venom i have recieved in these threads had been acute .
this isnt a place to come to feel good about yourself, if i diddnt enjoy the debate i wouldnt be here attall.

dadof2ofthem Sun 26-Jun-11 19:55:37
"if i diddnt enjoy the debate i wouldnt be here attall."

Got it, dadof2, loud and clear.

Let me tell you something. This is not a game, not a 'debate' to 'enjoy'.

Don't you see how entitled and privileged that is, when the people you are engaging with struggle and suffer - have told you that they have suffered, whose personal (often heartbreaking) stories you have read?

Is it so hard to grasp that what you see as a little intellectual exercise before logging off to enjoy your privileged status is an insult to women for whom these issues are an inescapable reality?

You still seem to be grappling with the 'am I, as a man, a feminist?' question. Let me clear it up for you. No, you're not.

You're not a feminist, you're not here to aid and further the cause. You're here for the 'debate'. If you didn't get that then you'd be off, and fuck rape culture and the pay gap and FGM and the rest of the sorry litany.

And you reckon you're an ally? Fucking hell.

And how dare you - how fucking dare you - tell Sparky what she can and can't say and who she doesn't speak for.

You think that having to hear some cold hard facts has left you not 'feeling good about yourself' and you expect Sparky, after all she has experienced, to soothe your poor hurt feelings.... you're fucking outrageous.

Coming back to the OP. I don't think it much matters what label the man attaches to himself or what label anyone else attaches to him. Whether that be a 'feminist or pro-femisnist or equalist or whatever.

What matters is what he does and what he thinks although doing childcare probably mostly defines him as a father more than anything else.

My wife would never describe herself as a feminist. Yet she has been badly affected by many of the issues that are discussed here and feels very strongly about them. Many women on MN feel the same as my wife but some people would say if you are a woman you have to be a feminist by definition because of your experiences. The reverse logic says a man can't be a feminist because (as the OP argued with her friend in the pub) you have never lived as a woman.

In the end, this is just throwing around words. Some people have a strong and strict definition and others like TrillianAstra have a broader definition. What matters is men don't rape, sexually/physically abuse, treat women equally, fairly and respectfully in every aspect of life.

I can't help the fact I was born as a man. I do have privellege because of it. As a SAHD I experience more of the issues a SAHM faces than most men. I have read some feminist literature and dont agree with all of it or everything that is said in the Feminism section of MN. Not all women agree with it either. I do agree with the vast majority of it though and I don't need/want a medal.

What else can I say. The label doesn't matter to me. I know what I think and do.

My DH doesn't refer to himself as a feminist but he does see himself as a feminist ally.

Why shouldn't I be rude to him?

dadof2 uses porn, refuses to call out his friends and colleauges on sexism, bleats on at feminists about how they're doing it wrong, has explicity said that he intends to do nothing for feminism other than what he is currently doing (which is nothing)....

His only credentials are that he's read a bit of de Beauvoir. Well I've read Mein Kampf. So fucking what? Doesn't make me a Nazi.

He is a prime example of male privilege in all its sorry glory.

Him hanging about on here is doing nothing but sapping the energy of people committed to feminism.

He can post where he likes, of course, but I owe him no politeness.

blackcurrants - your feminist/vegetarian analogy is brilliant, I'm going to borrow it and repeat it to a male friend, who claims he is also a feminist ally yet watches porn and goes to strip clubs. That friend also happens to be a vegetarian, so I'm hoping using such an example might make it hit home.

I am of the opinion that there are men who are MSP's (not members of scotish parlement, but the other one) 'round the lads, and dwarkin book thumpin feminists at the coffee bar, especially if they think it will get them laid. Suspect dad of 2 is one of those.

there are workshops for me on this issue that i have been to and participated in. being a "male feminist" is not a way to meet chicks, either you are in, or you are out.

oops forgot that its french horsey root word, male CHeuvenist Pigs

I've always liked this post from the Girlbomb blog:

?Feminist Men?: Oxymorons, or Simply Morons?

Lately, there?s been a spate of ?male feminists? posting at the BBs where I lurk. At first I saw them and I thought, great! I mean, I like feminists, and I like men, so you?d think I?d love this purported hybrid of the two. And yet, no, not so much, not so much at all.

As a matter of fact, it?s caused me to realize that most of the men I?ve personally known who have made a huge hairy point of identifying as feminists have been either date rapists, mom fetishists, porn addicts, or bear daddies inflicting their frustrated pseudopaternal tendencies on women. They are some of the most passive-aggressive, patronizing, out-dishing without it-taking twerps on the planet, and they are poisoning the women?s movement from the inside by sapping the hell out of everyone?s goddamn energy.

Example: ?Pud? is a married thirtysomething man who joins a feminist bulletin board and starts posting long, ingratiating, groveling, weasely rants against the evils of plastic surgery, singing instead of the glory of the small, natural breast. Feminists soon smell a tit freak, and tell him to go blow. He is affronted, telling the feminists that they are doing their movement great harm by denying him membership ? he is wounded! What kind of humanist collective bars members on the basis of sex? Sexist ones! And thereby the feminists are sexist, and Pud is the sole champion of women?s rights left on the planet, goddess bless him!

Example Two: Edgy sexy artsy bisexual left-wing guy is always suggestive and provocative, always posting impassioned essays on Art and Politics, and especially Feminism. He talks about the pro-choice rallies and political events he?s attended, but he doesn?t mention that he went for the chicks. He likes to tell people what feminism does and doesn?t mean ? to him, feminism is mostly about ?women?s freedom to express themselves sexually without being shamed or oppressed by other feminists.? Id est: porn, threesomes, and you taking the pill. He?ll argue for sex-positive feminism all day long, putting down other feminists for being ?patronizing, infantilizing, and patriarchal.? PS: He?s only pretending to be bisexual.

Example Three: Mister Marxist is more marxist than you! While you are talking about cute shoes in the ?feminist? lounge, he is busy pedaling an exercise bike in his dank basement in order to power a hand-cobbled CPU that allows him to further the struggle of the Black and the Poor and the Undertrodden through the relentless sharing of information ? specifically, the information that everything about society and everyone in it is racist and classist and not very Marxist at fucking all! So why are you bitches of privilege just sitting there perpetuating gender stereotypes and not smashing the KKKorporation and meanwhile using paper napkins which are killing Mister Marxist?s soul a little bit more every day?

And oh, I could go on all night, detailing examples of the petty, the wheedly, the divisive, the pompous, the attention-hogging, the knowing-it-all, the sexually predatory?ah, good times?but instead, let?s post a handy checklist for the symptoms of Male Feminism.

1. Name drops bell hooks (making sure to drop the caps), or has sig quote by Rigoberta Menchu. Will suggest that you read such and such essay by such and such feminist before you discuss the topic at hand further, as it?s a ?must read.?

1. Feigns sympathy for the rigors of the menstrual cycle. ?Oh, cramps, bummer; I getcha, sister. By the way, most men are really put off by talking about cramps, but not me, I?m used to your crazy gross moon blood vagina ritual, because I?m evolved.?

1. Is smarter than you, and more ?rational? (i.e., not ruled by terrifying and psychotic mood swings), but doesn?t hold that against you. Understands that women are more ?emotional? than men, and therefore susceptible to ?simple misinterpretation.? Smirks, smarms, provokes, and blathers until you go crazy, then calls you crazy.

1. Loves porn, even if he pretends to hate it. As a matter of fact, the more he professes to hate it, the more hardcore and specific the porn is.

Now, I?m not saying that every man who believes in the equality of the importance of women and men is secretly a douche; I?m not saying that at all. I?m lucky enough to be domestically partnered to a guy who does half the housework, yields 50 percent of the remote, rallies and marches with me, and writes the appropriate outraged emails to Congress when needed. But he doesn?t go online and start talking about the reverse gender oppression of Mary Daly, or how Dworkinites have ruined anal sex. Thank the goddess. And I?m not trying to stereotype anyone, because that would be socially wrong, and as a feminist, I am against social wrongness. I?m sure there are some wonderful male feminists out there; I can?t wait to meet them, myself. Because the ones I know are just bitches.