Silly question maybe - can a man be a feminist?

[biryani]

After a few glasses last night I got into a discussion with a male aqcuaintance about childcare etc. This man claims he's a feminist because he shares childcare etc with his wife, and has read Naomi Woolf and Andrea Dworkin. I said something like " you can't be a feminist because you're a man!", meaning that feminism arises out of a specifically female take on the world and that a man cannot experience this, being a man, and therefore cannot be a feminist as such although he may empathise and understand female issues.

now sober, I'm not sure. Who's right?

Bennifer Mon 27-Jun-11 10:04:58
"Given that we live in a society where near naked women are plastered on billboards, when a man has a glance and is attracted only to the image, he's objectifying the women. That's his natural urge. He's not thinking about her feelings or her opinions on macroeconomics."

Do these men who can't be feminists because they see Cheryl Cole advertising low fat spread or something on the telly have the intellectual capacity of a tortoise or something?

Finding women attractive (whatever your personal preferences are) does not mean that you therefore have to view all women as meat, there to service mens' desires.

It is quite possible, surely, to see an image which is designed to arouse you and be able to understand that that is what is happening and attempt to have some mindfulness and awareness about it.

"His natural urge" - ffs. You do understand that this way lies rape apology, don't you?

Oh he's helpless, is he? Poor wickle fellow.

??? Rape apology ???

Daisy, that's the point I'm making. (Straight) Men are naturally attracted to women - if a man admires an attractive women, he is, by definition, objectifying them. It doesn't mean he thinks she's a piece of meat, but merely that she is attractive and isn't thinking about her opinions on macroeconomics.

You're clearly saying that it is a problem for men to be physically attracted to women.

I don't know it seems to me that the people with the negative view of men (that they become tongue-lolling idiots when exposed to advertising) are not the feminists.

bennifer 'My two cents, on a simple level, of course you can be a feminist and a man, just as you can be anti-racist, and be white (or whatever the majority culture happens to be).'

Then a man can be anti-sexist. But can a white person in a majority white society be actively anti-racist (not just thinking racism is bad) with a full awareness of the vast ways that people from minority ethnic groups are oppressed? That awareness, based on experience informs action. Can they have equal 'status' and equal power within the anti-racist movement? Should they expect equal status and equal power? Why should they automatically be entitled to that? If you actually turn the male feminist argument around and think about it in the context of race or disability politics it's pretty offensive and unthinking.

Men can be pro-feminist, join marches, challenge sexist oppression in their workplace, etc. They don't need to label themselves 'feminists'. If men are truly considered feminists then the feminists don't even have that political space in which to operate without men being involved. It is men who have oppressed women. Maybe not those men but they should respect that fact and not try and enter that space. This is about male access, entitlement and ownership.

Who's saying men become tongue-lolling idiots when exposed to advertising?

Look, I'm not saying that a man is uniquely stupid and gullible if he is attracted to an image of a woman which is designed to arouse him. Of course I'm not. What I'm getting at is that saying, "Oh, well, I can't help but be attracted to this image as it's my natural urge" is a total cop-out and certainly not an excuse for why it is just impossible for him to be a feminist.

A pro-feminist man would (in my view), be aroused by an image. and then - then - he would know that it is part of a culture that objectifies women. He will acknowledge this to himself. He won't buy magazines or images of women which portray them in a way which exploits them. He will talk to his male friends and sons about why these things are problematic.

floyjoy

I can see your point to an extent. I think it's good to have women-only spaces, I think it's easier to women to have a fuller understanding of the disadvantage that women face (but some women who might be feminist might have experienced very little discrimination - should they leave the movement?)

I find this bit interesting though

"Can they have equal 'status' and equal power within the anti-racist movement? Should they expect equal status and equal power? Why should they automatically be entitled to that?"

Because they're equal human beings. Why should blacks expect equal status in society? Why should woman?

It's within a movement that is to challenge white/male oppression - they are port of the group that oppress. They have greater status outwith that movement, bring them into the movement and they bring that power - they become more powerful than the minority ethinic or female members.

Feminism is about equality in society not male-female equality within the feminist movement. We don't need to fight for that. But if you let men 'be' feminist, we will have to fight for that.

The reason society is not equal for both sexes is because of male oppression of women. To imply that men cannot be feminists is sexist oppression that somehow equates with that societal oppression of women is to actually use a male argument that is intended to denigrate feminists by suggesting that they are no better than their male oppressors.

We don't have to include men. It's not mixed doubles at Wimbledon!

"You can't be a faminist if..."

unless you end that sentence with "you don't believe that men and women are equal" then you are wrong.

Men and women are equal, but they are not currently treated equally.

I had a little list earlier.

In my book you are a feminist if:
1: you think that men and women should be equal (equally treated, valued, respected, given equal opportunities)
2: you think that this is not currently happening
3: you want it to happen

Reality, it's not just semantics.

Because actually, the men who are so desperate to claim the feminist label and are so outraged when it is suggested that this is not appropriate are achieving nothing but make everyone think about them and what they want to be called. Which is kinda the opposite of being a feminist in my book.

In my experience, the men who are actual allys in the feminist movent say, "I'm a feminist. Oh, you don't think that's approriate for these reasons? Gotcha. Absolutely. I'm a pro-feminist man then. No problem at all."

Why the desperate need to grab at a label that some members don't want you to have? I mean if you were really bothered about being supportive, why would you want to be divisive, to make it so that time and energy is expended on what Mr Man wants to be called? A real pro-feminst man will just get on and do what he can to be mindful and supportive and not bang on and on about what he wants to call himself and what he wants everyone else to call him.

I don't think I'd describe myself as a feminist. I would describe myself as someone who is against sexism in much the same way as I am against racism and against other forms of discrimination.

I know some people see feminism and anti-sexism as essentially the same thing, and I know some others who see feminism as something more than that. That's fair enough. I know what I, as a man, can do to speak up against sexism and I try to raise my children such that they know that discrimination is wrong and that traditional gender roles are arbitrary. I don't know what I can do to help promote feminism as (say) a socio-political movement.

Despite my previous claim, I am not in fact in a relationship with Beyonce Knowles......, I know.

This means that I will be 'objectifying' her as I 'admire' her stage presence and general all-round hotness. Does this mean I am required to have a good talk to myself about this??

I don't think so. Does this make me any less of a 'feminist' if I were to call myself one? I doubt it.

FWIW, I don't think I have ever called myself a feminist, or a pro- or anything else.

My question (ignored so far) is why people are saying "look, men who claim to be feminists but are actually nasty" rather than addressing the question of can men be feminists.

I say yes, they can.

The man in the Op may or may not be, but I believe it is possible.

Actually my very first post was saying I'd rather men used the term pro-feminist .