Was Bristol Palin raped?

[darleneoconnor]

according to this bristol palin was so drunk when she conceived her son that she doesn't remember having sex.

Sounds like rape to me.

Then she was basically 'forced' to marry her rapist? WTF! Sometimes America sounds more like the middle east!

Quite a few forums are discussing this, with some

disgusting rape myths on this forum

HRH, I know you're keen to ensure that there no misquoting so perhaps you could do us all a favour and go through the thread and get all the posts where people have misrepresented me as saying that all men lie and all women tell the truth deleted. There's quite a few including yours at 15:32 today.

I'm happy to keep defending Bristol from allegations that she has lied despite the harm I am supposedly doing to feminism. Young women have enough to contend with when they tell their stories of non consensual sexual encounters, without everyone immediately jumping to the conclusion that they are lying. I'll happily be one of the few people who believes them.

But you're not accepting what Bristol says happened - you want to call it rape. I say the scenario described is not rape, unless she later remembered saying no, or he admits she said no.

Guess we're all going to have to buy the book to find out

What on earth happened to this thread??

I do take BP word for it.
She was too drunk to remember what exactly happened.

She is not claiming rape.
None of us were there.
Do we know whether L was drunk??
Was it a consensual drunken tumble??

WE DON'T KNOW.

People sometimes lie. People under pressure lie.
Whether they are men or women, people lie at times.

The statistic about teenaged girl's sexual encounters are v upsetting too me but in keeping with my experiences.

Oh my, I am losing all interest in this, between all the allegations and counterallegations of misogyny etc.

It makes me despair too. But for very different reasons. I'm glad Dittany and Karma are able to keep challenging. Makes me sad what I read here too.

Sorry, I must have missed a bit of the story. Can someone please link to the bit where she said it wasn't rape?

How do we deal with women who are asleep when they are raped? Problem is they can't remember consenting either. Is that not rape too?

Oh yes, and one thing I can concur with is that young women do indeed lie. They lie to protect their abusive ex when they are too young to know what to do, and although something is nagging in their mind that things aren't quite right, no-one has given them the words to articulate what is happening to them. In fact the only person who educates them about rape is the same abusive ex who tells them indeed that rape is only from a stranger. And that its just dandy to fuck with their head to get a yes. And sure keep going when they're crying just so long as they don't manage to get out a 'no'. Yes women do lie about that.

Just an aside but it has taken me years to realise that what I experienced at the hands of my XP was rape and even now I feel like a bit of a fraud for calling it that.

I always felt pressured but never considered it rape because we were in a relationship that was (I thought at the time) otherwise ok and it was never as though he held me down and forced himself on/in me. Sometimes I probably gave the appearance of being very willing (I knew it would have to happen anyway so sort of prompted it IYSWIM). If I'd had total free choice though I wouldn't have had it. I was coerced and pressured, even if not forced.

Does it make it consensual because I didn't say no?

I think maybe we do need to define degrees of rape, while at the same time accepting that all levels are wrong.

I'm not willing to speculate on the Bristol Palin case because I haven't read the book, but certainly I will be telling my DS to say no if a drunk woman comes on to him and demands sex. I don't care if she is responsible for her own actions, he will be brought up to believe that he would be a lesser person for going along with it. In the context of a relationship he could use experience and context to see if that drunken overture is genuinely consensual, but as a first off encounter he is taking advantage even if she genuinely offered it. If a drunk person offered you their wallet, freely, would you take it?

Being drunk is not the same as being asleep. It is possible to consent whilst drunk, not whilst asleep.

This thread is going in weird circles. Snorbs got it spot on in the very first response to the OP - see his 2nd paragraph. (Sorry can't C + P, on iPhone app) We're now over 500 posts and the argument on the 'it was rape' camp is not getting any stronger.

It's speculation either way, unless she remembers what happened. We know she woke up without remembering, but it may have come back to her later.

Have to buy the book...

It's also quite possible, and probably more likely, that she can't remember because she was passed out, too drunk to say yes or no. But yes, men shouldn't let that stop them.

Are you saying that it is more likely that Levi raped Bristol than that it was consensual sex which she forgot about due to alcohol?

I suppose it comes down to probability since we are only speculating. I take the view that consensual sex is more likely, you take the view that rape was more likely.

A heck of a lot more drunken consensual sex happens every day than rape, you know.

If you are so drunk you cannot remember, you are also too drunk to consent. That is where the balance of probabilities lie.

And here we are full circle.

(Cue anecdotes about people who have a condition that means they black out after a thimble if babycham)

Again, not specific to Bristol Palin, but does a woman have to view non-consensual sex as rape for it to be rape?

I'm thinking about women such as the wives of members of the Taliban for example, who will have been brought up to believe that it is their husband's right to have sex whenever they want. We would undoubtedly view it as rape, but would she?

There are plenty of women who feel like it's somehow their fault they were raped, and that makes them very unwilling to call it rape.

Obviously for a case to go to court a woman does have to call it rape but I'm talking hypothetically rather than legally.

And yep sunshineandbooks, I hear ya. A lot of the stuff I hear now about rape, I also recall my partner telling me at the time. I remember him talking about the crazy idea that some evil feminists were talking about that the absence of a no does not equal consent. And explaining to me, many years his junior, why it was wrong. Fucking creepy I think now.

that was xpost sunshine, was referring to your previous post.

So why isn't there a drinking limit on sex, like there is for driving?

I'll answer - because the amount of alcohol involved is irrelevant to whether a man is a rapist or not.

Drunken sex is perfectly legal.

The law is pretty clear - don't rape. All men know what it means, there are no grey areas.

Drunken sex is legal if it is consensual. It can only be consensual if the woman has capacity to consent. The ability to consent can be impaired by numerous things, including drink.

Or we are taught not to call it rape by our rapists.

I agree the woman does not have to name it for it to be so.

Thanks Dittany and Alice. That's what I've always felt as well - If she doesn't want it then it's wrong for him to take it even if she seems passive - though I've been very reluctant to call that rape in the past. I guess I have subscribed to this idea that it's only rape if she's fighting back and screaming no.

Macaroona - I found an answer to your question on why there was not a drink sex limit. Some judges had the same thought