'Man-hating feminism'

[MisterDarsey]

There's an article about this in the Times today by Libby Purves, provoked by Lionel Shriver's portrayal of the boy in 'We need to talk about Kevin'

Just thought you'd like to know

Just catching up with this thread and having a quiet chortle at Tyr being the new Mitchell brother. Is there now something about salting a poster who's name is Slug? Gosh...if I was feeling inarticulate and unable to respond in a debate (not sure your contribution counts in that regard Tyr but still...) I'd rather resort to using emoticons than surreal hints at violent ends for the posters I am debating with!

Tyr - I am sure if you ask MNHQ nicely they'll do you a nice axe emoticon or how about a lovely shiny AK47? Then you could really get your point across?

im not fuckin dyslectic tyr-im semi illetterate-
i have had vertilly no education and i taught myself to read and write-
however-i know its not top form.
but this is ok-i love my bruv and sis-and i speak the right words-the words thats is in my heart.
you however is more illiterate than me-how do you feel?
cat-i know you wouldnt undersand[said kindly]ill get back to you and try to explain some more.

i dont think intelliggence is either stewie-him book learned!

'How did dimwits express themselves before emoticons were invented?'

I dunno, Tyr, but I'm sure you an tell us...

Btw, sparky, sorry I think that was my fault Tyr thinks you're dyslexic - I said I was and that was what I got pissed off at him taking the piss out of your grammar. He obviously couldn't understand a simple explanation and assumed I must be saying you were dyslexic instead.

no no no no no Lrd-hes just too thick to see the difference
im very pleased he has tooken the piss out of my grammer as some might now see what im been on about for ages.
the class thing ect.
ah-i understand dyslexia but as i said-im semi illettittette-no shame in either-
we just put the point across however our spelling-
its not the spelling that counts-its the words!

I am really going now, honest (dodges cabbages...)

I am going to be honest, I was angry when I first read this thread. It confirmed what I'd been suspecting about this site - not that you were all man-haters I suppose (ok, a bit that you were all man-haters) - but that I was wrong to think this site was for me. If it was an all female site for mums that didn't have a Feminism section, or was like some of the forums I've been on where politics wasn't allowed to be discussed - or was a mixed site where gender issues could be thrashed out with input from both sides - then maybe. And if you look at how the, as far as I know, one male in this thread has been attacked and made out as if he's being threatening, with NO ONE saying 'come one, of course he wasn't" then it seems like a nasty, unfair place. I've got boys, I've got a man, I've got good, GOOD male relatives... I feel like I'm betraying them if I either stay and keep quiet or defend males in every other thread. I can't be bothered, and I know I can't shut up (as you can tell by this long goodbye)

Best wishes, I'm sure you're all nice enough in real life x

And if you look at how the, as far as I know, one male in this thread has been attacked and made out as if he's being threatening....

Tyr certainly came across as threatening (among other things) to me when I read his posts. But at least two other male posters on this thread have been treated with courtesy and respect - because they behaved with courtesy and respect.

I can't understand where the problem lies with hating certain behaviour/s of men as a group and why that is being willfully misinterpreted as hating men, full stop.

Feminism is not about hating men, but about hating what men (as a group) do/have done to women (as a group). It's about bringing those behaviours and attitudes out into the light of day so we can see what's really happening. It's about admitting those behaviours and attitudes exist, admitting that most of us have internalised some of those behaviours and attitudes ourselves, it's about challenging those behaviours and attitudes in ourselves and in others and it's about smashing those behaviours and attitudes and finding a way women can be truly equal with men.

It's essential that this space exists on MN because as a parenting website, the vast majority of posters either have sons and daughters of their own to bring up or wish to have them one day.
If we can understand the problems we're up against, we can each try and do something about them ourselves and raise our children to regard each other as equals, worthy of respect and compassion, regardless of gender, colour of skin, nationality, dis/ability, income and all the other constructs of "other" people use to oppress or denigrate people who are different to themselves.

In the end, it is not about hatred at all. It is about the opposite of hatred.

Catmilk, I think what's confusing for you is you've not come across Tyr on all the other threads. When he first appeared many people thought he might be genuine, but it's become increasingly clear he's doing what's known as trolling - trying to wind people up by adopting a persona likely to offend.

(slight return)

Tyr is just an example. My reasons for leaving are clear in my previous post. Another reason was the silly trolling and vindictive derailment of my AIBU thread. Another was the thread where HerBex (sp?) said teen boys were a bit like rapists, and there was not enough 'that's a bit harsh, I have boys' for my tastes. And some other threads I've read where serious man-bashing went unchecked by anyone else in the thread... It's why Loose Women drives me crazy...

Look I'm going now, stop asking me questions! x

?Threatening,? ?MRA,? ?Wanker,? "Troll," ?C**t? etc. All pretty shabby attempts to dismiss someone who challenges bigotry; in fact, the best some of you could manage. Then you call the recipient of the insults rude and threatening.
The title of the thread was something of a self-fulfilling prophesy, wasn?t it?
Anyway, unless someone comes up with something novel at this stage- even a novel insult, I?ll leave you to bitch about men. For some of you, that seems to be your lot in life.

'vindictive derailment of my AIBU thread.'

I don't think ANYONE on here would be able to start a thread telling people to only post once each and not get it derailed, not even the so-called Mumsnet royalty.

it is the sort of thing that gets people's backs up. Nothing personal. I suspect that you are, in fact, more pissed off about the fact that no-one agreed with you on it.

I've got boys, I've got a man, I've got good, GOOD male relatives...

Well, ditto. But I don't see how we can recognise and promote the good without recognising and deploring the bad. That is what a lot of feminists seek to do. I don't want my good male relatives lumped in indiscriminately with all men as intrinsically violent and evil, but I don't think anyone on MN feminism boards does that.

I think posters generally concentrate on attacking problematic male behaviours and attitudes, not men per se. A lot of this naturally involves talking about cultural attitudes and society as a whole, but that is not the same as ascribing terrible attributes to all men.

Some people seem to have difficulty with that distinction. Others simply ignore it because they are intent on undermining all feminism.

Catsmilk do you really honestly believe that you are a feminist?

Because if you do, why have you come out with the tired old sexist refrain of feminsts not being able to keep a man - as if that's what all women should be doing - and lying about what I said on antoher thread?

I really don't wnat ou to go away telling yourself that you are a good feminist and we're all just a bunch of man-haters. Because that it is too comforting for you and also just factually wrong.

You are either deliberately pretending not to understand what I was saying on the other thread, or you need to practice your critical thinking skills and organise your thought processes better. If I amb eing charitable, I suppose I can attribute your characterisation of my posts as being down to a kneejerk discomfort to having facts about male violence against women being brought uout in the open, but you cannot be so uncomfortable about that and have the luxury of calling yourself a feminist and characterising other feminists as man-haters. That's exactly why we have feminism-lite today, which is exactly the sort of feminism mysogynsist love - it pretends that we're all equal now, there are no problems and women should just STFU and do a lap dance every now and then if they fancy a bit of power. You're lining up with that brand of feminism, which isn't feminism at all.

Gosh, and there was I just commenting on the level of the argument.

What I meant was the arguments from Tyr, and to a lesser extent catsmilk have the tenor of teenager whining. I used to see it often when teaching. The tactic (almost always from boys) was to repeat anything said by a girl in a whiney, high pitched voice, followed by a devestating comeback, often in the form of the phrase "Duhh, you're stupid".

It struck me that there wasn't a lot of meat in the arguments if you see what I mean, there was no real attempt to discuss or extrapolate on a point. It was simply 'repeat and sneer' which, quite frankly, I find juvenile.

As an aside I used to work with an NPD who would make wildly incoherent statements then, when challenged, state "I made myself perfectly clear" then flounce off.