Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

We started this debate on cosmetic surgery with the example of an 18 year old girl getting a boob job. Sorry, but I don't think any apologist can make that sound healthy or sensible! An 18 year old is probably not yet fully developed. She is only just a legal adult. This is a perfect example of why education should apply to society as a whole, not just our own daughters.

(darthniqabi, totally off-topic but may I say I love your name! )

Herbeggs said what I was trying to say, but better.

I figured. It's a great mental image too. There's a lady I know who used to play giant bats with all the kids at school in hers, but Darth Niqabi is better!

Good post bumperlicisio

And I agree with herbeggs: the point is absolutely that society is telling her her isn't good enough.

"Not for other people but because you are concerned about how you look to other people. If you didn't see other people ever, you'd be unlikely to want plastic surgery."

No - I repeat, I am only concerned about whether I like the look of myself! And that is how it is for most people. You'd have to be awfully insecure (almost mentally ill) to care so much about what other people thought to want to undergo cosmetic surgery because you are concerned about how you look to others.

I don't think that not seeing other people ever is very realistic! You'd be very unbalanced in myriad ways if that were the case.

dittany - why would a cosmetic surgeon be a moral failure? A cosmetic surgeon is in business like any body else - he/she responds to market demand (since humans are unable to perform their own surgery, other than the very minor). I think an 18 year old girl asking for a boob job from her parents is an educational failure (if she wants a boob job, she should expect to pay for it herself, and 99.99% 18 years old aren't going to be able to do that, which prevents the issue arising, fortunately, since 99.99% of 18 year olds don't need boob jobs).

This article was in the paper today. www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/apr/16/domestic-violence-teenage-girls.

Don't cosmetic surgeons have the same moral pressures as any other kind of doctor?

As far as I know anyone who goes through med school has to study the ethics of what they're doing - why would cosmetic surgeons be any different?

Because the vast majority of 18 year old girls don't have anything wrong with their breasts! Whereas lots of older women have horrid breasts that really need some help. Are you that ignorant that you don't know the difference?

And why do you think people train as doctors to cure people? You are so naive - they train as doctors because it's good money!

Oh because "stupid" is not a personal attack but "ignorant" is?

I recommend you buy a house in Disneyland as soon as possible dittany - and never, ever leave .

To say that lots of older women have horrible breasts is actually a really misogynistic thing to say Bonsoir!

Too barbaric for you, dittany, who needs to wrap yourself in cotton wool and be protected from anything that isn't soft and cuddly. You need to grow up and realise the world you want, where everything you personally find frightening is banned, is never going to be.

What's horrid about older women's breasts bonsoir? I'm 26 so I obviously have these joys awaiting me - all mine have is stretchmarks around them, and that's not exactly 'horrid' ... certainly not as 'horrid' as cutting them open and putting bits of crap inside, surely?