Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

dittany - you are very nasty yourself, in your playground way. But you just don't want to face it.

It's just 'the truth' that women over the age of 18 have 'horrid' breasts and should get them cut up?

If it makes me immature and scared of everything to find that depressing and revolting, so be it.

I have never felt in my life that I was fighting for anything for women as a whole in my own country. I would love to see changes for women in other countries who arent as lucky as we are in England. I think there are many global issues for feminism to fight but personally I havent experienced anything personally that makes me want to fight for it in England (again that could be because I have been lucky I dont know).

"Even the idea that the function of women's breasts is to be aesthetically pleasing/sexually exciting to men is barbaric."

Dittany - and you think you are a feminist?

sungirltan - That is so far from my experiences from men that work in warehouses in their early 20s. I think you just met some idiots.

It's misogynistic to hate womens bodies bonsoir! You dislike most womens bodies because lets face it, most women are not currently 18! What the fuck? That's not ok!

How did you get from thinking some older women have horrid breasts that they want to improve to hating women's bodies?

It's a kind of self-loathing, isn't it, risotto? Since Bonsoir is herself not an 18-year-old. This is why society as a whole needs to be educated, so women don't have to feel so awful about themselves.

I don't feel awful about myself (and my 44 year old breasts are, naturally, in fine shape, after breastfeeding for several years ). But obviously a lot of you lot do feel bad - and the perception you need to change is your own, about yourselves, not that of the people around you. If you don't like your body, the best thing you can do is (a) make the most of it (b) come to terms with what you cannot change.

Exactly, dittany.

In all honesty, I'm sure I don't have the best perspective on this given my age, but I'm really struggling to imagine what could be so awful. I've seen what breast cancer looks like and that is pretty horrible so I can understand women who have very deep responses to that. But otherwise - what happens to them?

"The horrid thing, is that women's bodies are judged and found wanting in such a manner."

Why? A women dislikes her breasts and these days, if she wants, she can pay a cosmetic surgeon to improve them for her. What's not to like? I personally wouldn't want implants, but I'm sure that that's a function of being generally happy with my breasts and nothing else. I had laser eye surgery a few years back - I'm sure I wouldn't have bothered with all the expense and faff if my eyes hadn't been so short-sighted.

What do we feel bad about? Do you mean 'we' as in people on this thread, or women in general, bonsoir?

Yes, women on this thread, LittleRedDragon, and on the feminism topic, always wanting the world to change.

I do agree its perception there are loads of conventially good looking girls that feel bad about themselves and there are loads of maybe not as phycially attractive people that feel good about themselves. Confidence is something that makes a person interesting and attractive to others. The most off putting thing in either sex is a lot of unconfidence or insecurities.

Breast implants wouldnt make a person feel good in the inside. Its how you feel as a person that makes the most difference and someone could look like a page 3 girl but if they havent got the inner confidence or self belief then it wouldnt change their perceptions of themselves.

I see. I'm not quite sure why you think we don't like our bodies though - what was said to drive you to that conclusion?

Personally, I do rather like my breasts. The fact that I don't have the remotest desire to condone cutting up healthy tissue should surely demonstrate that to you?

noodle - totally agree.

LittleRedDragon - if you are happy with your breasts, what on earth gives you the right to think that women who are not happy with theirs should be prevented from seeking surgery? Pretty stingy thinking...

Also advertisers and marketers are always going to try and make people feel bad in order to sell things in a capatilist society. It can happen to men and women but its up to a person to use their RL experiences to realise that most men and women dont want a 'perfect' looking person. They want an interesting, fun, confident caring partner/friend.

It is like a boy my friend was recently getting with who was obsessed about having a smaller penis. He brought it up all the time, worried him so much he couldnt get it up, makes him worry about talking to girls/act very neurotic etc. He kept bringing up have you had larger in your exes? You dont fancy me do you? I am not good enough etc. They broke up and she said she couldnt care less about his penis she had no problems with it but she did have problems with him going on and on and on about his percieved flaws to the point that she found him boring and annoying.

dittany - who are you to suggest that other women should not have recourse to surgery to improve theirs, if they are not happy with the way they are, for whatever reason (and I don't think the reason you give is at all complete, or correct, even). You are very self-righteous to think that what other people choose to do that you don't like (and doesn't affect you) should not be allowed. That isn't feminism, it's authoritarianism.