Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

And it seems naive to suggest that if an 18yo wants breast surgery then it's her parents fault. What about media influence / institutionaliser sexism / peer pressure / th increasing normalisation of cosmetic surgery?

WickedWaterWitch - you seem not to understand what education means

Bonsoir, but unless you lock your children up they don't exist in a vacuum. They are subject to all the outside influences/peer pressure that NO parent can control entirely. You might say "over my dead body are you getting implants/a tattoo/piercings etc etc" and give any number of sensible reasons why these things are bad....at the end of the day they will want to do what they want to do. You can give them positive messages to the contrary and that is about it really. Banning stuff rarely works in the end.

It's nothing to do with parental control (which is not education). I hope that the education I give my children will enable them to resist poor outside influences - just as the education my parents gave me enabled me to resist poor outside influences.

What about everyone else's children then, Bonsoir? If they don't have parents as successful as you, do they deserve everything they get from these 'poor outside influences', or should we perhaps try to change said poor outside influences?

That's the perspective I'd come at it from.

No, I don't think we need to censor the world; I think we need to educate people to make better choices.

From that perspective then we can free up a lot of the laws, rules and regulations surrounding what can and can't be shown to children and young adults.

Which is the way we seem to be going anyway, frankly.

I was brought up by my grandparents. They believed in education as the way to get on in life and were VERY strict. My sister and I were instructed to study hard, go to University, get a career. Hanging about and other typical teenage behaviour was strictly discouraged/forbidden.

We lied to them, snuck out of the house and did all the things we were told not to do. Drinking/smoking/sex - we did them all.

On the other hand, my father was a 60s child. He took lots of drugs in his youth. He talked freely about this. Funny stories, but also where someone overdosed and died at a party etc etc. He was very honest about what drug has what effect. To that end, I don't touch them. Dh smokes a bit of pot. It leaves me cold.

The whole reason feminism is needed Bonsoir, is precisely because an uneducated or in some way disadvantaged young woman might otherwise hit upon the idea of having her body mutilated to meet a beauty standard that shouldn't exist.

It is a totally stupid and reactionary idea to say that it's all right to surround the whole of society with shit ideas, as long as individuals keep the ideas in their homes pure. It's akin to saying that as long as we all keep our drains clean, we don't need a sewerage system.

I didn't mean censorship at all - were you replying to me bonsoir?

Bonsoir, everyone who posted in response to you has said what I wanted to say, i.e. children don't exist in a vacuum. But don't insult me by suggesting I don't understand the meaning of education. Here's a back at you.

I'm with you WWW. I go out of my way to give my dd positive messages. Some of it goes in.

Great posts being shared! I might be one of the "privileged middle class" that our OP and another member's DPs alluded to in that I had a lot of freedoms growing up, went to a school where girls were encouraged to aim high, and even got a job in a profession where the men and women earn the same because you are on salary scales, not in a privately owned company. But when I became a mum, I noticed how the world was still unfairly biased against women - in terms of maternity leave/pay, career progression, child care costs etc etc. I do look at a lot of teenage girls from different backgrounds who are obsessed with looks, sexuality and popularity, and think that in many ways they are their own worst enemy. If you idolise the starlets taking their clothes off for photoshoots or going out dressed like prostitutes then you are not going to get taken seriously if you aspire to get competitive college places and careers. In a way (this shows my age) we were lucky that in our time, there were virtually no celeb mags in Britain and the media admired people who really achieved things, not just the "famous for being famous" types. And the male dominated professions began to accept that if a female applicant had the knowledge, skills and was hardworking - and never turned up hungover because she didn't spend hours at the pub like the lads, then they welcomed the idea of first having this person as their trainee, then colleague, till eventually, boss. But if girls and young women themselves are going to turn the clock back on feminism by becoming image obsessed and only caring about marrying well, then they too will need feminism as much as the women and girls overseas who aren't even allowed to go to school or who are forced into marriages as teenagers.

Portoeufino - it sounds as if your grandparents "believed in education" but in matter of fact imposed rules from above. Authoritarianism is not education.

Dittany - do you really believe that cosmetic surgeons prey on women's insecurities and mutilate their bodies? I know masses of people (men and women) who have had cosmetic surgery and who are greatly enhanced by it and much happier as a result. Young girls with vulgar boob jobs are pretty rare compared with the vast number of noses/ears/chins etc that are enhanced among the population at large and leave people's lives greatly improved. It is very means and unpleasant to sneer at an industry that makes such a massive difference to people's lives just because you don't feel the need to make changes to your own body...

But bonsoir, it only makes people happy because it changes how other people see them (with a few exceptions e.g. Breast reduction surgery). If less of a price was put on looks then these people wouldn't feel the need for surgery.

And why would having a nose job make someone happier? Because somewhere along the line society has deemed a small/pert/button nose to be more attractive. And these aren't inherent factors, you only have to look and see how the fashion for body shape has changed over the years.

People I know who have had cosmetic surgery are happier because it changes how they see themselves ie they prefer their own reflection in the mirror without that bump on their nose or wonky ears. If your argument held, people wouldn't bother to get dressed and made up if they were at home on their own. But they do!

I think people get dressed etc when at home because it is convention, in case someone comes round unexpectedly or because they feel dirty staying in the same clothes. I don't think they do it to look nice for themselves. And do you think if someone lived on their own on a remote island, never seeing anyone else, that they would want to have cosmetic surgery? I don't think so, it's all about how other people see you. I don't deny it makes people happier, but it's because they think they look more attractive and that is a two way process, it involves someone else.

You imply that you believe that laisser-aller is a natural and superior form of living.

Whereas most humans on the planet aspire to civilisation .

No I don't believe it is superior at all. I thought the debate we were having is whether outside influences lead people to consider cosmetic surgery, which you don't think they do and I do.

No, that wasn't the debate I was having. I am arguing that if I have cosmetic surgery, I shall do it for me, not for anyone else, because I want to look nice for me. Why is that hard to understand? People don't go through all that expense and hassle for other people - we are basically quite selfish!

Not for other people but because you are concerned about how you look to other people. If you didn't see other people ever, you'd be unlikely to want plastic surgery. And the surgery you'd want to have would be to 'correct' yourself to some kind of normalised version that society has created. The desire to look a certain way isn't created in a vacuum is it? It's dictated by society i.e. other people. In the 20s/30s boyish figures with flat chests were fashionable, in the 50s the hour glass figure, in the 90s the waif/heroin chic look. This looks are mainly dictated by particularly well known figures at the time. A few hundred years ago it was all big hair and big skirts/bustles. My point is there is no inherent idea of beauty, it's dictated by society.

Of course people do plastic surgery for themselves.

The point is, they have internalised the messages about themselves - that they are not good enough the way they are. That their nose, or their ears, or their breasts, are simply not good enough. They believe that message and so they take steps to correct the problem.

The problem isn't their ears though. The problem is that society is telling them taht their ears aren't good enough.