Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

In RL though how often have you met anyone with fillers, botox , breast implants etc. Its not like everyone is doing it everywhere is it? So I dont really think its that hard to resist it because it is only the minority that succumbs to this kind of thing. Marketers are obviously going to try it but ime most people have more sense than to do any of that

If older women's breasts are horrid what should they look like?

Oh lol at Bonsoir, you are having us all on, surely? Very funny!

lol dittany! Those are quite scary! Bonsoir admits to trolling posting controversial points of view as she likes to study the reactions of us lesser mortals. She is clever, thin and lives in Paris and is therefore superior to the rest of us.

Haven't read the whole thread but I would suggest that women losing careers and jobs because they have children, the continuing existence of a glass ceiling, the under-representation of women in government, industry and senior positions, the gender pay gap, the fact women do proportionately more of the household chores than men, that women do proportionately more childcare than men, the fact that it is only in the last couple of weeks that leave to care for a baby has been able to be shared with a man, the discimination against women of child-bearing age in the workplace and the lack of flexible jobs at a senior level are just a few bloody good examples of why feminism is still utterly relevant today.

Am quite that anyone would think it isn't!

Will read rest of thread now.

Well said!

"Bonsoir Can you not see that the society we live in influences what we think are our own ideas?"

You may feel like a robot/parrot, but I don't, personally . Maybe that comes from living in a very multi-cultural way...

No, you'd have to be a robot/parrot (Interesting cross breed there! ) not to be influenced by society. You won't find a credible scientist out there who won't agree with that.

Bonsoir if you don't think you are influenced bythe society you live in, then you either lack a really basic standard of education or you are incredibly arrogant to imagine that you are the only human being ever to live on the planet and not actually imbibe any of the cultural influences by which you are surrounded. To genuinely believe that any person can ever live on earth and not be influenced by their culture, is to be an idiot frankly. Towering intellects like Einstein wouldn't claim such god-like status.

Quite, StayFrosty.

My 3 yo is quite influenced by her peers at nursery. I think this is quite normal and not a sign that I am a terrible parent. She certainly isn't getting her proclivity for pink, flowery dresses and lots of hair accessories from me Of course some of it may be her personality - again not something that I can or would want to have undue influence over (another point missed earlier - people often are just how they are, no matter what their parents do).

Anyway, humans are social/community based creatures. That's why our society is successful - and it works because people feel a drive (however subconscious) to fit in. People who don't understand the drive to fit in or refuse to do it are often ridiculed / cast out. The idea that any normal and sane person could be outside the realms of this drive is incorrect.

It starts when we are babies. We mimic the people around us - facial expression, sounds. Copying others is vital.

Stupid impressionable babies eh

It continues as we pass through our childhoods. All of this is quite normal. Children look at the world around them and come to understand what is expected of them. The messages that they perceive often persist to adulthood, unquestioned. Hence the utter inability of most women to explain why some types of body hair need to be removed, but others can stay. Having been raised in this society, I understand in myself why leg hair and arm hair is different and one must go and one can stay. However I can also see that this position is illogical and somewhat ludicrous, and that actually it's just a (longstanding) fashion.

dittany - I speak English, French, Italian, Spanish and German and the language I use with any particular individual is usually a function of whatever is our easiest common ground.

Interestingly (or it is interesting to me because I like languages), the word 'idiot' comes from the Greek word referring to someone who is incapable of participating in society, incapable of being influenced by it.

I know this thread has taken a jokey turn, but to be entirely serious for a moment: nobody wants to be outside of society's influence, not really. I know people who are lonely or isolated or don't manage to interact with people around them properly, and it is really sad. So let's have less of the pretense that it's somehow strong and brave to be able to ignore social pressure: you probably don't, and if you really did, you would be a very miserable person.

Sorry to spoil the light tone, but this is something I feel fairly strongly about.

dittany - I don't need your "gentle" help. You attempts to patronise are really silly.

LittleRedDragon - there are segments of society that operate according to strict rules, where everyone behaves much in the same way because they are scared of not toe-ing the line, and there are segments of society where people are much more liberal and able to make reasoned decisions and individual choices and pick and choose according to their own needs. That doesn't mean that people in the second segment live "outside" society or are lonely and isolated.

Bonsoir - my comments weren't just aimed at you, they were intended as a general point.

It seems to me that you often idealize the sort of society where people obey strict rules or are considered in some way faulty, yes?