Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

Where on earth would you have formed that opinion, LRD? Very odd. I live in a world in constant flux, quite the opposite.

Really?!

You suggested yesterday that you'd think a woman who didn't shave her legs to go swimming (not a hot date, note, just exercising, not parading around, but underwater and out of sight for 99% of the time), would strike you as someone who'd failed to make the most of herself.

It seems clear to me that you've got a very strict sense of what you consider to be appropriate and what is not, in that situation. Same perhaps with the post-18 breasts being 'horrid'. You seem here to be seeing the world very much in absolutes: either you must conform, or you've failed. You don't consider that people who break the 'rules' might be using a different standard, or might not care so much - you suggest they be judged in absolute terms.

That's where my thinking came from. I do hear that you're saying you don't like to conform socially, it's just harder to understand what you mean exactly when what you've said paints the opposite picture.

You almost seem to think there's an objective aesthetic standard that applies to women's bodies, is what I mean.

You are confusing self-improvement with rules, LRD. Those things are really not the same and you ought to know that.

No, I don't think so Bonsoir.

You see, 'self-improvement' implies there's an absolute standard, right? You reckon that a women necessarily 'improves' herself if she shaves her legs or gets her no-longer-youthful breasts cut up.

No, rules imply an absolute standard - authoritarianism. Self-improvement is the very opposite - making the best of what you've got without referral to any particular external standard. The mix and match approach. What it is not is "lettting it all go" in rebellious mode.

Most of this thread is about rebellion against rules with no thought for how to improve your life after rebellion (a sort of reversion to pre-civilisation of hairy legs and saggy breasts, which is just depressing really).

But your absolute aesthetic judgments imply an absolute standard. Therefore - by your own admission - they are akin to rules. If you read back in the thread, you'll see that you did admit you thought that unshaven legs on a woman were ugly, and that older women's breasts can be 'horrid'. Rather obviously, therefore, you are refusing to accept that there is no objective external standard here.

I think you need to decide which side of the line you fall on. Either you accept that there isn't an absolute standard of female beauty, in which case unshaven legs aren't 'ugly', they're just not your thing. Or, you believe there is an absolute standard, which allows you to judge hairy legs and saggy boobs and whatever else you like in absolute terms such as 'ugly' and 'horrid' - but you'd have to admit that you're bowing to social pressure.

It doesn't matter to me which you do, but I do find it strange listening to you trying to do both!

But why is shaving your legs any improvement on not shaving them? The hair is meant to be there!

The time would be better spent reading an improving book, surely?

You are very confused, LRD. Think about it. I haven't suggested anywhere that there is an external aesthetic standard - on the contrary, I suggested you look at art history because I think that looking a huge variety of images that have been appreciated across the ages helps individuals form their own personal aesthetic judgement.

Oh dittany. I don't believe there are rules that need to be adhered to; sadly, lots of people love rules and having them to rebel against because they haven't (yet, hopefully) got a mind of their own.

It's possible by 'confused' you mean 'running rings around you'.

You think that unshaven legs are ugly. You think that older women's breasts are 'horrid'. Neither of these were put forward as 'my personal opinion' or 'just what I think, in certain cases'. You were given plenty of chances to backtrack, or clarify, and you didn't. It is therefore very clear you think there's an absolute standard of female beauty.

If you'd like to backpedal now, and tell us you don't really think unshaven legs are objectively ugly, feel free.

Cicatrice - just because things "are" doesn't make them aesthetically pleasing and civilised. What about the hair and sweat under your arms? They are "meant to be there" but most people find the smell unpleasant and do something about it.

LRD - you are completely unable to run rings around me. I'm not going to backpedal because I am entirely consistent. You are mightily confused, however.

Please, do explain how I'm confused then. I've explained, several times, why your logic is inconsistent. The fact that you've not replied does rather suggest you're unable to come up with a consistent logical explanation for your position(s) on this issue.

I think you would do better to look inside yourself rather than ask someone else to analyse your shortcomings. Rules, rebellion... how about education after that, LRD? Wouldn't you like to be able to think for yourself and set your own personal standards?

So no answer then?

What a pity.

Please do carry on with the digs about my education too, btw, I'll let you know when I start feeling academically outclassed.

" making the best of what you've got without referral to any particular external standard"

PMSL. Are you actually that self-deluding Bonsoir or are you winding us all up? You can be very funny sometimes.

I?ve been away from this thread since Saturday lunchtime and I came back today to see whether anything interesting had been added. WTF?! Bonsoir, words fail me! Do you really claim to be a feminist or is this all a big joke?
A couple of choice examples:
?the vast majority of 18 year old girls don't have anything wrong with their breasts, whereas lots of older women have horrid breasts that really need some help?

?if I saw a woman swimming with hairy legs I would feel very sorry for her for loving herself so little and not wanting to make the most of herself.?

And you claim to be saying these things in the name of feminism? Whilst you?ve derailed the original post in some ways, you?ve actually given me ample ammunition to support the argument that feminism is vital. Sadly, your contribution to this thread is a prime example of how it?s often women themselves who undermine the efforts of their sisters to rise above sexist attitudes ? we?re our own worst enemies at times.

Sorry but Bonsoir has to be a troll because her arguments are nonsensical, full of contradictions and unreasonable. I wouldn't bother trying.

Well, she's not a troll, she posts perfectly genuinely on other threads. She may be trolling here, though, but I think she also believes some of what she's saying.

Yeah, i've seen her posts elsewhere but this is so far removed from sensible discussion, it's ridiculous. [mind boggles]

I think Bonsoir is having a laugh but she is also trying to distract herself from the cognitive dissonance due to her being a feminist but having a dp in the beauty industry, and she has lived in Paris so long she's got Stockholm Syndrome.
if she faces up to the reality of it all her head might explode.