Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

[Indiestarr]

Was having a chat with DP tonight over dinner and it degenerated into an argument. Initially we were talking about Islamic attitudes to women (in light of France banning the niqab), and it broadened into a discussion of attitudes here. I was making the point that even though oppressed/minority groups such as women/gays/whoever are in a pretty good position here, at this present moment in time, it's worth remembering that attitudes don't always move forwards and can infact move backwards, and so rights we've attained can actually be snatched away if we get complacent. My broader point was that feminism is still really important because even though a lot of the battles women have fought have been won, these victories can always be undermined and even reversed if we don't pay attention.

DP thought this argument was 'banal' because 'it's meaningless to speculate on what could happen', plus he pretty forcefully insisted that feminism is 'totally outdated' and asked me to explain why exactly things were so bad for me as a woman. I admit I had no ready examples of why things were 'so bad' but I did ask him how he would feel if our DD aged 7 came to him aged 18 and asked to have the money for a boob job because the boys didn't find her natural body attractive enough (ie she didn't look like a porn star). He said 'I'm sure she'd have more sense than that.'

What has left me reeling is the claim that feminism is 'totally outdated' and that, as he's effectively saying, women have nothing to complain about. To be honest I don't find myself complaining that much but that doesn't mean the battles have all been won. I also think it's important not to get complacent. Can anyone on here cheer me up with a little support :(

Don't put words into my mouth, please.

I didn't say I wanted to 'prevent' other women from seeking surgery. I said I didn't condone it, and I don't.

To get back to the scenario you brought up, you'd feel you'd failed if your 18-year-old wanted a boob job. I feel as if society fails when women with perfectly healthy breasts want to have them cut up. Neither of us has a magic wand to wave and make sure our desired outcome always applies, but we can both do our best to encourage it.

Fair enough - but "not condoning" implies disapproval. Why judge other adults like that?

LRD - cant you see though that advertisers and marketers are just doing it to make money. They dont care and never will do whether you are a man or a woman. They just prey on some people not being able to resist their advertising and that makes them rich. You dont have to buy their things or let it bother you if you dont want to though.

Of course - I do disapprove, I'm afraid - or perhaps it'd be more accurate to say I feel awful about it and sad that people end up like that. Sorry if that is upsetting to you, but I think it's a fact of adult life that people don't always approve each other's choices.

I imagine (I may be wrong) that you wouldn't approve of all of my body-related choices: for example, I'll be off swimming in a little while and my legs haven't been shaved for about a month. Sometimes people do judge; that's their business. I'm sure there are people out there who look at me and think 'god, how did that woman let herself get into that state'.

I'm quite happy to let their views battle out against mine in a discussion; I don't see myself changing mine, so where's the harm?

LOL dittany, don't be so cross all the time. Go shopping and to the hairdressers - it makes everyone feel better about themselves

noodle - I do agree that money-making is often to blame, but I don't think that's a reason to give up, especially when so many people obviously get upset enough by it all to mutilate themselves.

I don't understand what's "wrong" with older women's breasts? They don't look like the breasts of an 18 year old - so what? It doesn't automatically make them "horrid".

Breast shape and size that is considered "desirable" by society also changes according to fashion. It's just fashion. There is nothing actually intrisically "better" or "worse" about different types of breast size and shape. And IME, as with hair, many women seem to want what they haven't got. Women with large breasts long for smaller ones and vice versa. And the cosmetic surgeons cash in.

Most women who have cosmetic surgery of this type don't experience any long term increase in their sense of wellbeing or happiness IIRC. It certainly hasn't worked for the young women I know that have had it done (huge sample size of 2!!!).

Yes, if I saw a women swimming with hairy legs I would feel very sorry for her for loving herself so little and not wanting to make the most of herself.

I also agree I would feel like I have failed as a parent if my child felt the need to go out in a whole face of make up in order to go outside or get a boob job. I feel its my job to teach her to have confidence in herself and self belief to become a strong person. To me that is more important than really high grades at school as that self belief means she will put up with no rubbish from men, not be a doormat and have a confident and happy life.

I know not everyone is lucky enough to have parents who teach them those values but I think it is the most important thing you can teach either boys or girls. I think its by far the best lesson my mum and dad have taught me. If you are brought up like that then you wont succumb to the outside pressures.

Well, then, aren't you a hypocrite to suggest I shouldn't feel equally sorry for a woman who thinks breasts can be 'horrid'?

ROFL

It's almost satirical, surely?

noodle yes we all have to do our best. And also speak out when we see or hear things that we think make that job so much harder.

Maybe I am losing my sense of humour and Bonsoir is having me on - if so, I'm sorry!

I do find it hard to believe.

Obviously if you are immune to the ugliness of hairy legs, I understand better why you might be immune to the ugliness of worn saggy breasts. Maybe an art history course might help?

I dont know why every one is making a big deal out of not shaving their legs as if it is really that shocking. I never do and never have and no one has ever made comments at me that I know off. No men have ever cared, it hasnt stopped me from having plenty of boyfriends, getting married, having friends etc

I really dont think anyone particularly cares tbh. No one cares as much as you probably think they do, and if they do they obviously have nothing better to think about.

I reckon the Art History segment of my PhD will do fine, but thanks so much for that Bonsoir.

"worn, saggy breasts"

"ugliness of hairy legs"

Trying a leetle bit too hard now!

You can see how some people's children might grow up thinking there is a mountain to climb to meet the beauty standard really, can't you

How'd you 'wear' breasts anyway, d'you think, sardine? Is it something I should know from Style and Beauty?

Mine have been worn by all the the sex

That I got despite being a hairy feminist

See, if you were a proper feminist sardine, you'd be on top every single time, and then they wouldn't get rubbed away, just bounced a little.

Tut tut.

LOL at the sheer madniss of Bonsoir

I am most upset that I seem to have missed all the fun!

I find this so exhausting

women never fail in your duty to be sexy and attractive at all times

the breast thing is depressing- I came by these breasts honestly, they have aged with me as I have aged, nursed my children, and they are not disgusting

they are also not the breasts of a 15 year old ingenue

so WHAT

what age do you have to be before you retire from beauty? I envisage a generation of octogenarians with rock hard plastic breasts, Botox, fillers and fuck knows what else with rictus grins on otherwise immobile faces and it repulses me

it is just as crazy to try and maintain the physique of an 8 year old as to try and remain permanently 23

You want to not age? Die.