Men discriminated against from cradle to grave according to Dominic Raab MP

[JustineMumsnet]

Writing in an article on Politics Home, Dominic Raab MP for Esher and Walton has written:

"It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice. The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge."

"While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men. From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women. "

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

"You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions."

What do you think MNetters?

Truck - I know what you're saying, but if it's my comment you mean then a) it wasn't posted directly after your post, but several comments later and b) it wasn't a jibe at you in any way. In fact, I specifically said that it was in response to Beachcomber, and that I would like to use it next time I heard/read a WATM comment. This in no way implied that I was talking about you or your comment, because I wasn't. Just wanted to set the record straight on that.

"The great achievers of life are those who refuse to accept defeat in the face of adversity and often overcome disadvantages and in some cases disabilities to fulfill the impossible dream"

No. The really great acheivers, are those who refuse to accept injustice and by their work, help to change the whole system so that those with disadvatages are less disadvantaged, so that their dreams aren't impossible.

Individuals overcoming adversity are admirable of course. But a few individuals getting through the system, isn't a just solution to systematic disadvantage.

LOL at AspieDad's internet finger.

I have a separate set of fingers for t'internet.

Again, for the record - my post was inspired by what Sakura said. It was nothing to do with anything Truck has posted on this thread.

Having said that, I would like to precise that I don't see how men can meaningfully contribute to the feminist movement unless they acknowledge their privilege (in the context of gender politics of course).

Indeed the men who choose to climb aboard, not only acknowledge their male privilege, but tend to try to strike a happy balance between using said privilege to the advantage of the movement, and not being oblivious to it, in their interactions with women - admittedly a difficult balance to strike.

Men suffer discrimination when it comes to many things in life, not just in the workplace. In the majority of cases of separation and divorce men lose full time custody of their children. I have also read in the paper today of a man found not guilty of rape but he has had all his details published in the press for the last year. The female who accused him of rape has not had any of her details published. I am a mother and have a boy and a girl. I do worry about my son in future as it's blatantly obvious that women have far more rights than men nowadays.

Dolly, did you know that statistically your son is as likely to be raped (by another man) as he is to be falsely accused of rape? It is much more likely (about ten times to be precise) that something bad like this will happen to your daughter than your son.
you probably already know which sex earns more and which one dominates the government, top positions in practically every profession, etc etc. and which one is twice as likely to be murdered by their partner?
I think that thinking your son is the one you need to worry about in the current climate is absolutely loopy, but hey ho....

Anti woman notions?? I am a woman and believe in equality. How are my comments sexist?

Dolly I think the point is

That you are more worried that your sons are going to be falsely accused of rape (extraordinarily unlikely) than your daughters are going to be raped (unfortunately not terribly unlikely).

That means that you believe that women are liars who set out to destroy men for no apparent reason, and they do it all the time, when that is not true. But women actually getting raped the whole time is not such a concern.

That comes across as quite anti-woman.

Dittany, I have first hand experience of discrimination in the family courts as it happened to my brother. So don't start telling me it doesn't happen. By the way Dittany the word 'feminism' is soo outdated. It's about equality in the 21st century, move on and stop slating men. You say you feel sorry for my daughter? If you have a son then I feel sorry for him too.

Thank you BeerTricksPotter. I thought this was a discussion group too. I didn't realise that anyone with a different viewpoint would be so personally attacked.

Has there been man-slating Dolly? Can you remind me where?

The word feminism is what it is. It is the name for the movement we are part of, much as methodists are called methodists or environmentalists are environmentalists. Changing the name would be a tad confusing, and hardly change the point of it. Even if we changed it to Men R Lovely And So R Puppies & Kittens, if we were still trying to achieve equal rights for women worldwide we would still attract a lot of resentment & suspicion. It's not the name, it's the fact that we're trying to change millennia of oppression, with I might say considerable success (are you enjoying your vote, your right to own property, and your actual existence as a person under the law?) that gets people's goats.

Did you know that everyone accused of a crime gets their name published? No matter what the crime is.

Truck, for you class is the problem.
In fact the truth is that women have less of a stake in the class system than do men.

Abolition of class would be fantastic for feminism.
To tell women class is the ultimate battle just means that you want to yoke their energies to fight a battle that ultimately does not see them as fully human. WOmen can't be expected to fight for a cause that does not acknowledge that women are a separate economic class of their own.

WOmen are the prostituted class, the sex class. They are also the reserve labour of a capitalist system, ushered into the workforce when needed (during a war, for example) then shoved back into the low paid unskilled, monotonous workforce when men are around to fill the good jobs. They are also the class who carry out the majority of unpaid labour, which has no value under capitalism, predominantly: pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, and child-rearing.
In effect, women are the underclass upon which the success of the capitalist system rests. Always have been.
I read a tiny Guardian article the other day aabout a Gap sweatshop in India which burned down. It was young women who died. Just like the Triange Shirtwaist factory in the US, when 147 young women died in the fire because they were jam packed into a tiny room behind their sewing machines and couldn't get out. Are you honestly telling me I should ignore the fact that the owners of the factories are men, always men, and that the exploited are generally women????

sorry, my second sentence sounded contradictory. I meant that class is one battle for feminism, but it won't eradicate misogyny or gender-based violence, and it probably just means that men will have economic parity..

Dolly why do you worry more about your sons being falsely accused of rape than your daughters actually being raped, when the first is extremely unlikely to happen and the second is reasonably likely to happen?