Men discriminated against from cradle to grave according to Dominic Raab MP

[JustineMumsnet]

Writing in an article on Politics Home, Dominic Raab MP for Esher and Walton has written:

"It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice. The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge."

"While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men. From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women. "

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

"You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions."

What do you think MNetters?

Brilliant post Beachcomber.

Especially this: "... and you do a campaign on the issue that some white people are worse off than some black people, (even though it doesn't have anything to do with their race, it is to do with their class, and thereby just confuses everybody and makes the movement's message incomprehensible)."

Can we just copy and paste that every time there's a you don't care about meeeeen argument?

I find it really gutting that most men won't admit their privilege. I know I have white privilege, and able-bodied privilege (or whatever that might be called) and that it helps me out when I turn up at e.g. a job interview on my own two feet, with my white face. I know that it's not fair that I might be chosen over an equally qualified candidate because of my skin tone or health status, and it makes me want to do something to help wipe out racism and ableism, even if just calling it out where I see it. What it doesn't make me want to do is deny those things exist. I don't understand that reaction.

I think I've misunderstood feminism and I think of heard my last 'what about the menz' comment.

I'll go back to my socialist campaigning, smash the rich and priviliged, university for all and not just the upper and middle classes and all that.

I'll leave to your discussions, good luck.

Aww Truck don't take it badly.

I can see how 'what about the menz' must be a really irritating thing to hear. There is a lot of truth behind the concept however.

I just think that we shouldn't water feminism down by turning it into a class war.

See what Elephants says about her own privilege, well that's what it's all about isn't it.

I acknowledge my privilege in being white/sort of middle classish/educated/living in one of the richest countries in the world.

Feminism is just asking men to do the same.

Of course lots of men are disadvantaged. However they are not disadvantaged because of feminism or because of gender oppression, and the chances are that feminism is not the vehicle for achieving equality for them.

At the same time, human rights are human rights and we are all coming from the same angle - that everyone deserves to be treated equally. The oppressed and the downtrodden will have so much more force if we back each other up, say in the way feminists did with the civil rights movement.

Does it help any if you think of 'what about the menz' as meaning 'what about those who are the privileged group when it comes to this particular type of oppression'?

It just isn't very snappy though so I can't see it taking off.

Or think of it from a socialist point of view,

'what about the upper middle classes'

Truck - when I can afford it, the money I give to charity goes to Amnesty and groups that work with disadvantaged children, rather than feminist groups. So it's not like I don't care about anything except women's rights. But I do think that it's an incredibly important fight and if you "just" concentrate on equality for all, women get left behind.

Truck I think the thing is that feminists in the UK and around the world face issues that are not just linked to money - the haves and the have nots that you speak of.

If you take something which is a huge problem for women - street harrassment, sexual assault and at the extreme end of the scale rape, these are things that happen across the classes and different income levels. Being a rich woman will not protect you from these things, and of course it is ridiculous to say that working class / less well off men do not perpetrate these offences. Men who do these things go across the whole of society and when you look at street harrassment, sexual assault and scary things like being followed, they happen all the time. I don't know a single woman who hasn't had a random man do or say something horrible to her simply because she was a female.

When you talk about the money aspects you focus on one part of women's problems, when in fact they are much wider. And then if you try and exempt whole cohorts of men from being a part of the problem then the whole thing doesn't make sense any more.

In capitalist societies, women are worse off than men.
In fascist societies, women are worse off than men.
In socialist societies, women are worse off than men.
In white societies, women are worse off than men.
In black societies, women are worse off than men.
etc.

(I mean men as a group and women as a group in all the above, I just wanted to keep it shorter)

Yes I agree with you.

However the money angle often seems to cause all sorts of difficulties for many people, and I thought it worth trying to show people that even if they don't agree with the money/work side of things, that there are plenty of other difficulties that women face because they are women that they might agree with. So hopefully changing from "feminism isn't for me" to "feminism is very important although there are a couple of points I'm not quite sure about".

I meant to add, socialist and left-wing groups and associations are well-known for perpetuating gender problems - promoting men to the top, deciding via shouting matches, leaving women to make the sandwiches etc - just as much as other organisations. Hopefully this is getting better, but I know several men who are very active in these kind of groups who are aware that there has been a real problem with sexism in the socialist movement and are trying various things (including women-only groups etc) to try and stamp this out.

(It goes without saying AFAIC that right-wing groups perpetuate sexism - what with their insistence that we stick to "family values" etc - I'm just adding that those who promote equality in other fields esp between classes have been guilty of leaving women out too)

Go Go Theresa May

Crikey look forward to seeing footage of that. Wonder which MPs were cheering - they can't have grown up that much yet have they? I thought they were still on the urgh girls stage.

Truck, would be a shame if you didn't post anymore.

I think Labour in opposition are constituting themselves as the party for women more than they did in the closing days of the old regime and when the odious Mandelson was pulling strings.

I bet there were a few feminists among the new influx of Tory women MPs too.

It's just a pity Cameron didn't make the effort to publicly distance his party from Raab's opinions.

that's a thought, do you think Cameron is trying to have his cake and eat it re the women's vote?
He plays Mr Nice Guy and we know he would never say anything like Raab did himself, and he can use Theresa May as the mouthpiece for condemning sexism so he can make out the party isn't actually anti-woman, but he will never come out and say anything actually feminist himself so he can keep the dinosaurs in his party and the Daily Mail reading blokes among the voters on board.
thus he lets Theresa May have her head and say what she likes but he can publicly disown her at any moment when it becomes convenient.

Yes I'm sure that's right.

The Tories realise that their traditional fan-base are queueing for the Alzheimers clinic, and so are even willing to stretch to The Women, The Asians, The Gays and The Blacks in order to, er, broaden their appeal. But they would be silly to alienate their core of religious, hang 'em, flog 'em, women in the kitchen, sell off the NHS darlings too much.

Looking forward to seeing the TM footage too :)

Seth I was going to say something along those very lines.

Men and women are hard wired differently and whilst most of us have learned how to compete and often win in a man's world, that isn't what we do best and few of us like having to do this.

Good riddance to Sky Sports reporters Andy Gray and Richard Keys even if they claim to be sacrificial rams. They were crude, disrespectful and distinctly unpleasant in several scenarios and this behaviour seemed to come naturally to them. Whereas when women criticise men we're usually right and we're likely to use humour to get our point across.
Nearly final point, how do we get more women to represent female needs and expectations in male dominated areas like football and the motor industry, for starters? Women are important customers but few want to work in a man's world where we feel unwanted...
Absolutely final point - I am always surprised to hear women saying there's no difference between the genders . When it comes to customer service, for example, we are much more demanding than most men and we don't want to be treated like men - we expect a lot more and have different needs. And businesses that are more female friendly in terms of looking after us deserve our support. That's not sexism or feminism just common BUSINESS sense.

Truck, what was said that made you decide you don't want to know any more about feminism?

I think inate gender differences tend to mean that we are good at breeding and cleaning. I don't subscribe to them.

seth's comment near the beginning made me LOLOL

HerB-

Because I really believe the Internet has given a voice to people who never had it before and that they can change things.

What about the menz, which was said after one of my posts, would make the Oligarchy that run this country jump with joy to hear the comment.

Divide and conquer, there's an uppity male class warrior trying to understand feminism and thinks it would be good for all the marginalized groups, women, disabled, working class, single parents, blacks, poor to be able to unite and make a change and they can't agree with each other, I bet they love it.

DR is trying to keep the gender war going because it suits his agenda. So he's trying (and succeeding) in pissing feminists off, and getting men saying 'what about us?' As I said divide and conquer.

Is the glass half empty or half full?

There are still some areas of equivalence (as opposed to equality) to be resolved but in the main there are advantages and disadvantages to being a particular gender.

Life ain't fair, never has been, never will be.

Do you think Karren Brady got to where she is today by whinging about things being unfair and riling against things that are, at best, very difficult to change?

The great achievers of life are those who refuse to accept defeat in the face of adversity and often overcome disadvantages and in some cases disabilities to fulfill the impossible dream.

This whole x is better than y argument really pisses me off. I've got certain skills, my wife has certain skills, we work as a team and play to each others strengths.

For the record, I can do a weeks ironing for a family of 5 during a single episode of Top Gear. She can change the drive shafts on our car.
She works nights, I work days so we both have to stand on our own feet with regard to chores.

I don't even know where to start with your observation Truck.

It sounds like you have taken it a bit personally that people discussed the disadvantages of the Wotaboutthemenz argument.

Do you not acknowledge that women have certain disadvantages because of their gender, that men of the same class do not have, in the same way that black people have certain disadvatages because of their colour, that white people of the same class don't have?

Or are you of the school of thought that says race, sexuality, gender are all distractions and the only thing that matters is class?

And if you're not of that persuasion, would a couple of posts critically discussing the implications of your question, really make you want to turn off from engaging in and learning about a whole area of human rights which you say you don't know much about but will almost certainly impact you directly because unless you're posting from a monastery, you probably have women in your life?