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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Men discriminated against from cradle to grave according to Dominic Raab MP

447 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/01/2011 11:19

Writing in an article on Politics Home, Dominic Raab MP for Esher and Walton has written:

"It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice. The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge."

"While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men. From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women. "

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

"You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions."

What do you think MNetters?

OP posts:
SlowComfortableShrew · 24/01/2011 13:10

Wanker.

coldtits · 24/01/2011 13:11

WHY is the 'dwindling pay gap' a problem? is there supposed to be a paygap? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a penis is not, in fact, a qualification.

SlowComfortableShrew · 24/01/2011 13:11

Wanker.

Eleison · 24/01/2011 13:12

Completely baffled as to why this run-of-the-mill vent by an MP has been stickied. It is like this MN-originated once-stickied thread, which never told us why our views were being canvassed.

Is there some reason why it is good for MN to be engaging with the Politics Home site?

Eleison · 24/01/2011 13:12

Sorry , forgot the link to the other thread where our views were canvassed without explanation here

belledechocchipcookie · 24/01/2011 13:14

I've reported Justine's thread and asked her if she can pop by at some point so we can moan chat Grin

ISNT · 24/01/2011 13:15

Well firstly I think that "men are from mars and women are from venus" has nothing to do with feminism...

Then he complains about the "closing gender pay gap" and that this is due to discrimination (presumably positive discrimination when it comes to women's pay). Logically the only thing he can be getting at is that women are inferior in the workplace, and deserve to be paid less, and the only reason they are catching up is because they are being paid more than they are worth and/or men are being paid less than they are worth.

I think he is entirely wrong on that point, and I think he will find that many people including all sorts of leading men actually realised that women are able to, you know, think with their brains, back in the Victorian era.

MiraNova · 24/01/2011 13:20

Full article here Link

ISNT · 24/01/2011 13:25

Christ almighty he actually titled his article "let's end feminist bigotry". No pussy-footing around then Hmm

Does it occur to him that some of his conservative constituents will be feminists I wonder?

Or does he find it impossible to imagine that one of the nice ladies at his conservative club might be harbouring hairy-legged tendencies?

JustineMumsnet · 24/01/2011 13:25

@Eleison

It seems a combination of genuine discussion points and silly reflex irritation.

Could you just mention why this has been posted as a sticky thread?

Hello,
Someone from the Evening Standard has asked for my thoughts. I was interested in Mumsnetters. Stickied so folk could see.
Nick Clegg thread was stickied because this type of issue is discussed all the time on MN and thought people would like to see/ discuss. Also we thought it very likely that the press would call for a reaction at some point the next day...

OP posts:
melezka · 24/01/2011 13:26

Do you know, I think we have plenty of interesting discussions on this part of the site - in fact I often come here for the logic rather than the bluster and spittle that can make me feel a bit meh about the rest of mumsnet - so am a bit disappointed by the blatant feminist-baiting, tbh.

He's just a shtooooopid whinger. End of.

Eleison · 24/01/2011 13:30

Ok, well, when you are gathering stuff for a press release, or for any other purpose, it would be good if you could make that clear as a courtesy. I don't come onto MN to generate copy for journos and I avoid threads where you have stated a purpose of that sort.

Eleison · 24/01/2011 13:33

(Think you have blown your Ottavia nickname.)Grin

vesuvia · 24/01/2011 13:34

Dominic Raab wrote - "the rapidly dwindling pay gap"

I suppose it all depends on one's definition of "rapidly dwindling".

The gender pay gap has reduced from about 28 percent in 1997 to about 20 percent in 2010.

If that rate of "dwindling" continues, we can look forward to the pay gap disappearing in 32 years from now.

JustineMumsnet · 24/01/2011 13:34

@Eleison

(Think you have blown your Ottavia nickname.)Grin

Bollocks!

OP posts:
ISNT · 24/01/2011 13:34
Shock

"Keeping women out of work is one of the easiest ways to bridge the gap: Swaziland and Sir Lanka have the lowest pay gaps. Meanwhile, pay is just one of the terms of employment. Men work longer hours, enjoy their jobs less, commute further and are more likely to get the sack. "

Last time I looked women in those countries worked pretty fucking hard indeed, and in many areas at enormous personal risk.

I am absolutely gobsmacked.

Rape is rife in swaziland and women have few legal rights. See here if you have a strong stomach

"Women cannot purchase land or sign contracts, we cannot take out a bank loan without the sponsorship of a husband or male relative. Legally, we are children. How can a country treat its women like this today?"

See here for further info about how women do not have basic rights.

What is he on?

AnnieLobeseder · 24/01/2011 13:35

What an idiot. He seems to be complaining that gender equality is making progress.

There was another MP (or maybe even the same one) on Radio 2 last weeks talking about the Implanon scandal. This was when women's implants had been incorrectly inserted (and actually not been inserted at all, IYSWIM) and were seeking compensation because they fell pregnant.

This guy said it wasn't the NHS's fault that poorly-trained personnel had caused these pregnancies to happen, it was the women's faults and if they didn't want babies they shouldn't have sex. Shock

Some MPs really are about a century behind the times on so many civil issues - feminist, racism, ageism, disablism etc etc. I despair.

ISNT · 24/01/2011 13:39

"Likewise, family-friendly policies could help exhausted families struggling to strike a sensible work-life balance. Critics mocked the idea of transferable tax allowances for couples as socially regressive and financially insignificant. Yet, transferable tax allowances for parents with children under five would support women who choose to stay home, when their children are young, while helping them save for childcare, if and when they choose return to work. A little tax relief would go a long way."

I thought that the tax relief he's talking about is only available to married couples? So will apply much more to older/retired people (who are more likely to be married) than the parents with children under 5 that he talks about.

What a load of old drivel.

Starsandplanets · 24/01/2011 13:39

It shocks me that people actually vote for these morons. What other outdated, incorrect views does he hold? Somehow this idiot is shaping society.

Gah! Rant over. What ISNT has said.

ISNT · 24/01/2011 13:40

Shock @ the MP annies heard too. What party was he, can you remember?

AnnieLobeseder · 24/01/2011 13:42

ISNT - Tory, I suspect. Much as I hate Labour too, I think that level of idiocy is mostly the domain of the old-school Tory.

JustineMumsnet · 24/01/2011 13:42

@Eleison

Ok, well, when you are gathering stuff for a press release, or for any other purpose, it would be good if you could make that clear as a courtesy. I don't come onto MN to generate copy for journos and I avoid threads where you have stated a purpose of that sort.

Well yes, sure we would always says who's asking if we're being asked directly what Mumsnet/Mumsnetters think.

OP posts:
dittany · 24/01/2011 13:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany · 24/01/2011 13:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 14:04

It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice.

Perhaps because all the cases of sexual discrimination and harrassment at work going through the courts tells us that discrimination is still widespread. Come back when that's all stopped and we'll talk about choice.

The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge.

Yes dear. Do try to articulate your feelings in a manner understable to others.

While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men.

Well if you can't get men a fair deal despite men holding over three quarters of seats in the house of commons, making up over 85% of FTSE 100 company directors, and being in charge of the BBC and all major national newspapers, what would you need in the way of power in order to sort everything out perfectly to your satisfaction?

From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women.

The retirement age is, as far as I know, becoming the same for men and women and quite right too. There is some evidence that outdated sexist notions of men being "tougher" than women causes them to delay seeking medical help, possibly contributing to earlier death. Men may work longer hours of paid employment, but women work longer hours once housework and childcare are taken into the equation. The difference is that men receive financial remuneration for their work, while women do this work for free. If it weren't for women's unpaid work, these men would be unable to work long hours and receive the financial rewards of doing so.

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis.

Is this a boast? Or are you saying that it's untrue that far greater numbers of men made the decisions that led to the banking crisis than women? There are far more men than women working in the city, and the higher up the decision making ladder you go, the truer that is. If you want to blame men and women equally for the banking crisis, remind banks to promote according to ability - which would presumably result in roughly 50/50 numbers. It might also help your claim if a woman had ever in the history of the UK Parliament held the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations.

Research has shown that women who negotiate hard for higher pay are thought of less positively by their interviewers. Therefore if women are behaving less assertively, it is because they are judging, rightly, that if they are as "assertive" as their male colleagues they will be judged more harshly for doing so. In other words, they are taking a realistic view of the potential rewards and risks and acting accordingly.

One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities?

Actually, these kind of generalisations are made all the time about women, and you don't need to look hard to see it. Try re-reading the first sentence of your quote - can you see it yet?

And women aren't a minority, thank you. 51% of the population is the majority and you would do well to remember that next time you are thinking of standing for election.

Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots.

Sweet of you to say, but I don't think we've reached quite those dizzy heights yet. Do provide some examples of self-declared feminists espousing bigoted views though, I'm all agog. N.B. Finding a woman, who doesn't claim to be a feminist, who says bigoted things about men will not do, sorry.

You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions.

Again, I am on the edge of my seat to see the evidence that feminists believe any of the twaddle written by John Gray or similar pseudo-scientists. Why not scour this very site to see feminists tearing apart the sex-differences supposedly 'discovered' by Simon Baron-Cohen and others.

Or save yourself some time and read Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender. It'll be a real education for you.

And do enjoy this.