Rape within marriage

[tabouleh]

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there.

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

SGM - I understand the law has recently changed in Scotland to address the offences you mention.

This thread is just deeply, deeply depressing. Getting the message out that being married, being flirty, being too drunk to stand up, being drugged, being too scared to say no is NOT consent is an important task - and one which hasn't really been achieved yet. Though things are improving.

However, insisting "reasonable consent" is an absolute and judging that I have technically raped my husband is inaccurate. The law does not require a verbal confirmation prior to intercourse - the law is that a reasonable person might assume consent - what that consent consists of is open to reasonable interpretation. The idea that I could be prosecuted for what I described is just a nonsense. It would never be convicted.

Posters may want to argue that verbal consent should be an ideal - others have responded that they wouldn't like that. It woudlnt' be my cup of tea tbh, and I suspect many would agree.

Most depressing thing about the thread though.. speaking as a determined feminist myself - is the frequency with which anyone disagreeing with the verbal consent ideal is some how considered anti-feminist or woman-hating.. or now, I think of it - mad. How utterly patriarchal! So much for polyvocality!

Marantha please reply to this:

"there are two sides to every story"

Yes indeed. Anchor has no reason to lie and say that she fell asleep, or said no, or moved away, if she actually didn't. What's she got to gain from that? (If you say attention I will scream) Anchor's H on the other hand has a strong motivation to lie and say that he though she had consented, however unreasonable that may appear, to prevent being held responsible for raping her.

And on another point, I think it should be a general rule that women are not interested in having a cock stuck into them "cold", without any prior sexual activity.

Clumsily trying to give her pleasure that she DID NOT WANT , how is something you do not want pleasurable ? And he wasnt drunk.

Anchor is depressed and finding things a bit of a struggle. On top of everything else her husband gropes her and clearly expects sex.
Shes not there to service his nob , and i think hassling a depressed wife for sex is actually quite horrible.

sleepypjs What a horrible thing to post about me. You should be ashamed.

smallwhitecat, I don't really think the 'handbag' incident you describe here is comparable with what Anchor describes happened.

I guess you want to know why I'm not quick to commit myself one way or another?
Well because it's rape we're talking about here. A very, very serious offence and I'm not about to deem anybody to be a bloody rapist without knowing all the facts and both sides of the story.

Which naturally I won't (and don't EXPECT to, either, it's only a forum when all is said and done)find out so I can't comment.

But perhaps what I should have said and will say now is, Anchor, what you say happened sounds awful, seek professional help.

you are right sassy. the case you describe would not make it to court and certainly you would not be convicted.

however seeing as 93% of cases don't make a conviction either i don't see that that makes your actions any less like that of rape.

it does however show that your standpoint is precisely why that figure is so high

Prolesworth I would assume my DH consents, as we have had general conversations and relations. It is that context. I wouldn't jump on a sleeping stranger and try and shag them - if that is what you're asking?

Gigantaur I think there are 2 issues here. The first is that much has been made on this thread about it must be rape because here is the legal defintion - however, people have quoted the law very inaccurately. The law would not support the claims made on this thread.

2nd issue is about whether the behaviour is ethical or morally a rape. I don't consider climbing on my DH's erect penis whilst he's asleep to be ethically wrong. I don't think he needs to consent to the specific act, because he has acted in a way in the past that leaves me to believe he is open to my advances.

Look it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Anchor's DH was trying to make her feel good as well as him - that is what sex is generally about fgs. I have been depressed and been bugged by DH for sex, it wasn't about him being selfish but about trying to make me feel good and make us closer!

Why are some posters on here intent on assuming he wanted to cause her pain for his own benefit - she was upset by it but he may have made a massive mistake, not intentionally causing his wife distress. He may be a selfish idiot for all we know, but Anchor hasn't been back so it's all surmise. I think it's really important to acknowledge that it may have been poor sexual communication and insensitivity that caused this horrible situation. He might have wanted to be make her feel good.

Gigantaur forgot to add - would you like to see the scenario I suggested as being the sort that could lead to conviction?

Elephants... You say she has no reason to lie (disclaimer: this is NOT the same as saying that she IS lying)but the truth is is that this is an internet forum. We don't know what the hell is right and what is wrong. We've only words on a page.

I like hearing discussions about whether or not somebody has committed rape and the legal points and all the rest of it, but I am very, very wary to comment on Anchor's case.
Or, indeed, on any case of alleged murder or rape posted by an individual here.

I think the other issue that i found disturbing is a depressed woman being hassled for sex to the point where she wonders if she should , with other posters activeley supporting this because the " husband needs sex ".

What about what she needs ?

if your husband is in a coma his penis could still become erect. would it be ok to just jump aboard? most right thinking people would say not

I am very clear on where the law stands as despite my own experiences i too sat in a jury for a rape charge and have had it explained to me very clearly.

the defendant was using a defense of assumed consent and so this particualr area of the law was relevant.

the law regarding having sex with a partner that asleep is clear. if they are unable to say yes -as they would be if asleep - then you must assume the answer to be no.
if you then stated that prior to his falling asleep he had already said no then i t hink that actually you would have a tough time convincing a jury that you thought it would be ok.

Well Larry it pains me to repeat your anti-female language but I have copied an excerpt below, highlighting one of your more general views, that I find offensive. I don't buy the bull shit, I do not think you are genuinely sorry, because your apology to Anchor is followed by you adding that you want your general views to stand.

You post sexist language .... you attempt to display a one-dimensional male view, where you are concerned about your teenager being criminalised on a thread that was meant to support a rape survivor. You joke about whether your wife enjoying sex on a thread about a rape survivor. I could go on, but your posts are transparent, so do not come on here and further harrass Anchor by trying to say sorry to make yourself feel better. This thread is not about you.

larrygrylls Fri 27-Aug-10 11:03:43

My days of pulling are long gone, and my wife always enjoys sex (or at least is kind enough to pretend to and be enthusiastic about it). My concern is for the world my son is growing up in. At some point he will be a horny adolescent, and I would not want him criminalised for assuming that a girl taking off her clothes and opening her legs implied consent. Do any of you guys have adolescent male children starting out on the road of relationships.

Snooze, Anchor says she has no libido, is depressed and her husband gropes her. How does treating someone like a peice of meat make someone feel good ?

And how does having a cock forced up you when your asleep ( completeley unaroused ) make anyone feel good ?

snooze you are confusing anchors position with your own.

her husband probably wasn't trying to cause her harm or distress but he did.
that is the part that is important. he did something that was illegal and as such he has caused her great upset. it is important that both she and her husband know that her feelings are not an over reaction and that what he has done is beyond acceptable

Sassy - no i wouldn't want to see your scenario convicted. i would want the message about what is acceptable sexual behaviour to get through to people so that the incident didn't happen in the first place

snoozathon - forgive me if I have got this wrong. Presumably when you first say no to your husband you mean no at that time i.e. you don't feel like sex at that time. If he stopped at that point would you have been quite happy and gone to sleep (or carried on watching telly or whatever)?

Snooze - motivation of a rapist is not an excuse.

Rape is Rape is Rape is Rape is Rape is Rape.

Anchor did not consent.

End of.

... and smallwhitecat - do not expect a lucid response from Marantha, it aint going to happen.

SleepyPjs,

If you have not noticed, I have stopped posting, so how about you stop denigrating me personally? And I have not posted anything personal as of yet.

However, fwiw, your language is equally one dimensional. If what Anchor said is true (and as someone said, this is an internet forum so anyone can post anything), she was unequivocally raped. However, she is not a "rape survivor" in the sense most people would use. She was raped by her husband. She was in no personal danger and had no fear of being injured or worse. I rather suspect a woman raped by a stranger on a dark night would be insulted by you equating the two (exceptions made for the wilder fringes of feminism).

You and some others (not all, by any means) can only see things through the distorting prism of what you believe "feminism" to mean. In your case, feminism=misandry. You have no respect for other's views whatsoever, and you are turning this into a thread ONLY ABOUT YOU. In what world does an unequivocal aplogy to an individual due to a genuine mistake further insult Anchor or make me "feel better". I was brought up to apologise when I am wrong. I suspect the words "I'm sorry" are not in your lexicon so maybe you should look them up.

And, humour (self-deprecating at that) is allowed in an INTERNET FORUM, regardless of its subject matter.