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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rape within marriage

1000 replies

tabouleh · 26/08/2010 15:28

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there. Sad

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

OP posts:
chocolatestar · 28/08/2010 11:32

Changing attitudes in society is important but I would like to see campaigns focus on making concrete changes in the system. Police/cps/judges who do not treat cases/women properly should be sacked or diciplined. If the legal system took rape seriously then maybe the rest of society will follow suit.

SassySusan · 28/08/2010 11:50

If we must.

"You say the women you met in academia were "open to other views" as if that was the most important thing in a feminist.

Generally, I find, if you want to have a debate with someone, you have to listen to what they say, rather than dismissing them out of hand. If you start from the premise that anyone with an alternative viewpoint is disgusting and rather insensitve even to mention it, and either misguided, oppressed or ignorant, it doesn't generally bode well for constructive debate.

I judge feminists by how interested they are in in freeing women from sexist oppression.

I missed the election where you got declared Queen Fem, I suppose? Don't be so arrogant. Other feminists aren't necessarily signed up to your definition of sexist oppression. If you listened to people more, you might find other women have ideas of their own.

If you think aobut it logically being "open to other views" could mean being open to misogyny and anti-feminism - so it's not the greatest attribute to have as a feminist.

Yes - you are so right... listening to other people .. very bad... Hmm

Feminism is a political movement not an academic debate."

No, it is both.

This is getting rather silly. I'm really not trying to personalise this at all. I appreciate there is some reason that you are distrustful or irritated with academic feminists, and I really don't have a clue what it is.. nor really the will or the grasp of recent developments in feminist theory to defend it.

I can only say, Catherine Mackinnon - who you seem to admire - is an academic feminist too. And in my own experience, Feminist discussion groups in Universitites in 1998 were a hell of a lot more supportive and friendlier places than here.

dittany · 28/08/2010 11:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ISNT · 28/08/2010 12:03

sparky and proles I am so sorry to hear about your daughters.

This whole thing has to stop. Millions of women in the UK have been through this, and still it's brushed under the carpet, ignored, silenced, lied about. I just keep thinking of the press response to that little 8yo and teh 2 boys who were found guilty of attempted rape. And 90% of the sympathy was with the boys! How can we have got to that, where people found guilty of sexual assault are pitied and the victims are attacked... And in our national mainstream press of all places. That case was a real eye-opener about how our society sees rape. An 8 yo old child cast in the role of liar, then vixen, who had led the boys on and deliberately got them into trouble out of spite. And the poor poor boys (OLDER boys, and there were 2 of them, she was outnumbered) are the poor innocent victims of this callous bitch. Apparently 10 yr old boys wouldn't even know what sex/rape is.... but 8 yo girls know enough and are knowing enough to lie about it. Sorry for charging off at a tangent but that case was so upsetting and completely revealed where we are with rape, and how powerful rape myths are.

sparky159 · 28/08/2010 12:05

yep chocolatesi agree with you.
campaigns-yeah.
i also think "concrete" is a key word-as things arent concrete are they.
having said this though-i cant see how this will help really-
its like-if someone does wrong-they will get jailed for it-but this isnt actually teaching them about wrongness towards others.
they could still come out with the same thoughts in their heads.
theres some that go in and out of jail like a yo yo.

sparky159 · 28/08/2010 12:18

Isnt
yep-i agree with you.
but its the whole thing rights across the board isnt it.
like-if someone gets raped-they are obviously not going to feel too good-
this can lead to depression and other things-
when this happens theyre either fobbed off with a packet of happy pills-or sent to a psyc witch stigmatises them even more.
the person that has been raped is seen as a victim all the time.
and in society victim equals weak.
its the bloody person who has raped them that is weak.

sparky159 · 28/08/2010 12:42

Prolesworth
sorry-i forgot to mention-
if ever youre feeling bad or just want to scream-or just want a shoulder-please feel free to e mail me.
dont worry-im not as mad as i sometimes come acrossSmile

Prolesworth · 28/08/2010 12:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

LadyBiscuit · 28/08/2010 15:44

I try to talk about what happened to me in an attempt to really make it not my fault. It's something that so few women talk about but the actual numbers of us who have either been raped/sexually assaulted or have family members who have been is shockingly high. I know that there was a thread on here about it and on another board I'm on there was an anonymous poll - something like 80% of the women on there had been a victim of sexual assault :(

thedollyridesout · 28/08/2010 19:56

I have read the list of rape myths that you linked to tabouleh and I am relieved to say that I don't subscribe to any of them. I have had a lot of verbal abuse on this thread and having read and reread my posts, all of which were written in a very measured way, it is clear to me that a lot of feminists on this thread are incredibly bitter.

Finally this discussion has come around to talking about respect and boundaries. People are saying how much they hate the words 'rape victim' and Anchor herself even said that she didn't feel raped. My attempts to help Anchor were not antifeminist in origin.

I never once intimated that what Anchor's DH had done was acceptable. I believe that it is possible to help someone in Anchor's position without having to label either her or her husband or indeed the trespass.

Here is what I think: (btw I would not describe myself as a feminist nor have I read even the slightest on the subject). The word 'rape' is keeping women down. The concept of 'rape' is giving men power. Why can it not be reserved for the kinds of atrocities that happen in war zones? Why is 'sexual assault' not a good enough terminology? The very fact that a man cannot be raped is antifeminist.

Please do not come back and tell me that I am talking rubbish or I really will believe all the myths about feminists Wink.

I hope it is not inappropriate to post this response. I apologise if it is.

grapeandlemon · 28/08/2010 20:04

"The word 'rape' is keeping women down. The concept of 'rape' is giving men power. Why can it not be reserved for the kinds of atrocities that happen in war zones? Why is 'sexual assault' not a good enough terminology? The very fact that a man cannot be raped is antifeminist."

Can you actually break this down and explain why on earth you would want to do this? To me it is like calling stabbings which happen in war zones stabbing and everywhere else an attack with a knife..why?

thedollyridesout · 28/08/2010 20:05

I should have said "The very fact that a man cannot be raped by a woman' is antifeminist.

thedollyridesout · 28/08/2010 20:08

It is to do with perception. Perhaps if it were redefined then more women would openly talk about it. It is too 'loaded' with negative connotations. Too many myths abound. The first step to demystifying it should be to call it something else IMVHO.

dignified · 28/08/2010 20:08

it is clear to me that a lot of feminists on this thread are incredibly bitter.

I find that comment a bit offensive to be honest , although i may have misinterpretared it, could you explain further?

sparky159 · 28/08/2010 20:11

thedollyridesout
i dont feel that it is the word rape that is keeping women down-i feel that it is how society sees people who have been raped.
you probably could call it what you like but with the same outcome.

if it is the word that is keeping women down-
why then use it for people in war zones?

Gigantaur · 28/08/2010 20:14

sassy - you said
"I wouldn't have thought you need a penis to commit a rape - I'm sure a man can rape someone with his hand/a bottle or whatever - so I have to confess, I have no idea what you're talking about."

no. that would be sexual assualt by penetration. not rape.

sparky159 · 28/08/2010 20:16

LadyBiscuit
Sadit wasnt youre fault.

dignified · 28/08/2010 20:17

word 'rape' is keeping women down. The concept of 'rape' is giving men power. Why can it not be reserved for the kinds of atrocities that happen in war zones? Why is 'sexual assault' not a good enough terminology?

The label isnt keeping women down, its societys warped veiws that are doing that.
Why not reserve it for atrocities same as in war zones ? Because its an atrocity in itself.

People DO feel uncomfortable about the word rape, i dont disagree. The way forward is to remove the myths around it, not change the wording.

ISNT · 28/08/2010 20:23

Agree with sparky and dignified.

The word rape was used on this thread by people (including anchors) to describe factually what had happened to her. What happened to her met the definition of rape, it was rape.

The fact that that sent lots of people bananas and running around waving their hands in the air like the sky was falling in, shows how far we have to go.

The word rape is just a word, a descriptor. It is everything bound up in people's perceptions of what it means that caused the hoo-ha.

I don't think that changing the word will help. I don't think removing this description word frm the langauage will do anything except make it harder for women to talk about what has happened to them.

ISNT · 28/08/2010 20:25

Is it not an atrocity when a woman is raped who is not in a war zone? I can think of plenty of cases in the UK that I would call atrocities Sad

ISNT · 28/08/2010 20:32

"Finally this discussion has come around to talking about respect and boundaries. People are saying how much they hate the words 'rape victim' and Anchor herself even said that she didn't feel raped. My attempts to help Anchor were not antifeminist in origin.

I never once intimated that what Anchor's DH had done was acceptable. I believe that it is possible to help someone in Anchor's position without having to label either her or her husband or indeed the trespass."

But Anchors did label what happened, she correctly said that it was rape, and she wanted to talk about what her next move with her husband should be.

It was everyone else (on teh first thread, the bit that I saw) who were vociferously telling her that it was not rape.

How damaging do you think it is for a woman who has just experienced rape, and says "I have just been raped", to be told that she has categorically not been raped. In what way can that possibly be helpful?

dittany · 28/08/2010 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Morloth · 28/08/2010 20:56

Fucking hell some people are dense.

I keep turning this around and trying to figure out how it isn't rape and I just can't see it.

ISNT · 28/08/2010 20:59

Do we all have to go around euphamistically talking about having been trespassed on?

No-one will know what anyone is talking about.

I think what thedolly is getting at is that people are only allowed to call it rape if it's "rape rape", to coin Whoopie Goldberg's phrase.

dittany · 28/08/2010 21:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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