I think I might call this a day

[ISNT]

I just feel so miserable that we are not able to actually discuess women's rights, on the women's rights section, seemingly ever.

All we ever talk about is men and I'm just really fucked off and bored with it. I feel like people just keep coming and stamping on my head.

Not sure what's happened sorry?
Surely men are important in the discussion as discussing women's rights implies they are different from men's (either rightly or wrongly)
if you mean the discussion always just ends up being about what men want then yanbu

Surely the discussion of womens' rights should be able to include a discussion of how those rights may conflict with the rights of others? Whether the 'others' are society in general, men as a whole, particular men, or even possibly other women?

If the discussion you are referring to is the disabled/prostitues one, I don't see why it should be stifled, just because it may have taken a different direction than the anticipated one.

If you're going to have a discussion, surely you need another point of view - otherwise the thread would just have consisted of a few posts along the lines of 'Yes, this is bad, how awful, etc' and then it would have died - instead it's an interesting thought provoking thread that raises many questions and may change people's minds.

Yes that's what I mean

What about the menz

About 2/3 of the threads on here end up with people coming in from elsewheer with the express purpose of saying "waaah what about the menz"

I am sick and tired of it. When this topic opened it was wonderful to be able to talk to women who are coming from the same place on these issues as me, something I can't do in RL. There have been some great discussions.

But now it's just forget about the women, we have to talk about something else instead adn I've had enough.

People just want us to shut up and fuck off don't they. They do in RL, I thought it was safe to talk on here, but it isn't is it.

Yes exactly rustybear, we must talk about the men.

On that thread, we have neen told that the prostitution aspect is "irrelevant" and "not the point" and that we must talk about the rights of disabled men to sex instead. No-one will engage on teh question of whetehr sex is a right, no-one will engage on whether councils should be facilitating this, excapt to say flatly yes of course tehy should.

On the FOSH threads we were not allowed to talk about the actions of a man who abused prostitutes and wrote about it, gaining him notoreity and indeed fame, and instead had to put up with acres and acres of stuff about how all women just love being prostitutes.

On the trans threads we were told that we were not women. We were not allowed to talk about female identity as being anything other than "a state of mind" and thus we did not, in fact, actually exist.

On the rape law threads we were screamed at for hours and hours by men who absolutely believed that woman lie about it all the time and what about the poor men eh, what about them.

I am fucking sick of it.

I think the problem is that you want to "talk to women who are coming from the same place on these issues as me", but the fact is this is not a feminism forum, so you are also going to have to deal with a lot of women (and some men) who are not coming from the same place as you. That may be because they disagree with you, or because they haven't really thought about it much before and are still struggling to think "outside the box" or to even start considering that the world they know isn't the way it "has to be".

So there will be a lot of people who "derail" the threads by focussing on men. It's such an automatic thing for many people to do, they do it without even thinking about it.

Not quite the same, but I am in the Home Ed topic quite a bit, and we have a similar argument on and off about how annoying it is to have people coming onto the threads assuming that school is the "proper" way to educate children. We have the same discussions over and over about how Home ed works, to educate people who have never really thought about it, rather than being free to talk about how to deal with a specific issue amongst people who are "coming from the same place".

That's because this is a general forum, not one where everyone has even a little knowledge about that issue - womens rights has to be explained over and over to people who just don't get it, before you hopefully get a few of them up to t apoint where you can have a more in-depth discussion. And then someone new comes in and you start from "Feminism 101" again.

AMIS, you make sense to me. You can use it as an opportunity to educate others, hone your arguments and see how well-constructed they are. Hopefully you will be able to change the perceptions of those that gatecrash in with issues of their own and blinkers firmly i place.
It's always been a fight, whatever area of rights you are discussing. Please don't give up because of opposition.

I love this topic as it is part of a wider forum, so we do get to bounce ideas around with people who may not have considered them before.

Well, if you don't like having to continually defend your point of view, perhaps you should get together and create a private board where you can talk to each other without experiencing opposing views - that's what the SN mums have done.

If you do stay on here, you can console yourself that you may well be playing a part in educating others, who may not post but will be taking on board what you say.

Many of the SN mums still post on the public MN boards and I think do a lot to educate other posters generally on the issues surrounding SN, but they shouldn't need to feel they have to do so (as you say it can get very wearisome) - sometimes they just want to rant to, or get support from others who understand, and that's where the private board comes in.

So maybe that's what you need, so that if you do feel like a debate or trying to educate someone, you can do it on here & retreat to the private board when you just want to talk to like-minded people.

But it would be a pity if people like you stopped posting on MN because I for one find your posts interesting & informative, and I enjoy the debates...

Thank you for your post amuminscotland, that makes a lot of sense.

I am just so tired.

How Dittany keeps at it, I don;t know. I have renewed admiration for her today.

Your brain is working better than mine this morning RustyBear, or I'd have suggested that.
It works well as a combination of base camp and battlefield. Plus you develop relationships, share expertise and support much more easily when you are in a private board.
Doesn't stop people searching for you who want a fight, but they are less frequent than out on the main boards.

Am calming down a bit now, I think I had been stewing all night.

Thanks all

I dont know how much appetite there would be for a private board TBH.

ISNT, don'T go, you keep me sane!

Personally, I don't think MN is really the place to have lots of private boards - I'm assuming there are feminism forums out there? Likewise there are Home Ed forums and email discussion groups, and people can always go on there if they want to be with people who are all on the same page (or at least the same book...)

I'm happy about there being an SN private board, and I can see why they need that and why it is a part of MN. But for other topics I tend to think we should stick to everything being public, and accept the fact that we have to deal with everyone whatever their views.

I wouldn't choose to go onto a feminism forum, but I read these threads and occasionally post, and I think I am learning something useful, so it does have value even if things do get derailed. Just the fact that its here at all maybe makes people notice, when they hadn't thought about it at all till now.

AMumINScotland,
MN has educated me about home ed, definitely.

ISNT, I regard MN as a white blood cell, or the borg or something. LOads of people come on to protest something and end up staying and coming round.

I come from a different perspective, not that I knew it, and have learned loads in the feminism section. So if that makes it more worthwhile to hear then it's a good thing. I was on the anonymity of rapist thread and truly thought they should have anonymity and the poor innocent accused would be dreadful. Following that discussion I read around the subject, provoked by dittany et al, and found that I had a complete uturn. (this was massively pushed by reading The false rape society's views on the issue). I feel my more aligned with feminist thinking than ever before and yet I am more aware than ever how little I know and how much there is to learn.

I hear you ISNT, but please don't go.

I think RustyBear speaks a lot of sense.

I really like your posts, so even when I don't have time to post myself, I appreciate you being on there.

In fact on some of those threads you've mentioned I've been so impresseed with the MN'ers who have stuck with it. It crystallizes arguments in a positive way, even though its wearing for those posting. I'm sorry I haven't been here more myself.

I do know what you mean though, there have been several threads deliberately seriously derailed in the feminist section.

just come back from holiday to see this - please don't go ISNT, I love your posts in this section. But do take a break if it's getting to you.

X post, PosieParker, great post btw!

Yes, ISNT, if you really need to, do take a break...but I really hope you stay, or at least return quickly.

By the way did everyone read The Independent yesterday about trafficking of British born girls? Made for harrowing reading.

Is it online, Posie?