Death linked to Mounjaro

[suki1964]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6jg6nw2zeo

I am in no way knocking anyone who is using these drugs, seriously if I could use them I would. However Im throwing this up here because these drugs have only been tested and deemed safe on a small study - those who's BMI is above 30.

in an ideal world. But I agree. There’s lots of meds whose users need greater supervision than they get I’m sure.

Yes @HollyKnight but let's think for a moment.

If you have 50,000 people that qualify for it and you get say 10 deaths....

What do you think happens if a further 50k people are lying about it to obtain it? Will there be more deaths? What do you think?

Can someone explain... if I'm 14 stone now and over course of year I drop to 9 stone on MJ and I become normal bmi... you say I no longer qualify for it?

How does this all work long term?

We know what happens to diabetics. They stay on it because it's a diabetic medicine.

But there are so many people on it now that are not at goal. So what happens to them down the line? Do we know?

See an example of you ignoring perfectly valid points.

When you take anti depressants and they have the desired effect, do you stay on them or come off them? Different people react in different ways.

If your blood pressure medication works, do you stay on it or come off it?

WLI are a medication some people will come off and some people won’t. Because yo yo dieting is seriously bad for your health. So for people who can’t come off them the benefits of staying on them and maintaining a stable weight outweighs the risks.

But again, this isn’t what happened to this woman so how is it relevant?

For sure.

are plenty of people who could be on meds who don't meet the "criteria" simply because the resources aren't there to facilitate it. You could have a BMI of 42, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol but still not qualify for injectables because the criteria requires you to have a 5th complication. But with enough time, you might develop heart failure, and then you'll qualify.

So instead of being prescribed something that will help stop you from developing heart failure, they wait until you've developed heart failure and then they'll give you the drug that could have prevented it. It's madness.

You no longer qualify for it for weight loss.
The maintenance doses that you could potentially qualify for are different to the weight loss doses. It will depend on your individual profile.
But at a healthy BMI you would not be able to have a new prescription nor would you be prescribed a weight loss plan.
The best thing to do is to direct these sorts of questions to the professionals - you can contact a prescribing doctor even if you don't have the medication from them to discuss whether they would offer maintenance generally and if so, how that might work for you - you're more likely to get the correct info that way.

Why are you grouping all those deaths together? People taking drugs they shouldn't be taking are not the same as people taking drugs they should be taking.

People who reach their goal weight will either stay on a maintenance dose, or they will continue their good eating habits without medication, or they will gain weight. It's not a mystery. The meds don't burn the fat off your body. You lose weight because your eating habits have changed.

Poor @Froggerz is tying themselves up in knots, so worried about whether formerly obese patients should or shouldn't take maintenance WLI

As you have such concern and care, could you come over and do my laundry, @Froggerz as I feel faint from lack of eating today 😂

@Froggerz OK I'll bite
"We can only go on what we know at the time and there simply is not enough evidence or data in the long term about these drugs and the effect on non diabetic, normal sized individuals."

The drug is being prescribed to obese patients or patients with certain co morbibities and a high bmi. Why would long term studies be needed in normal bmi individuals? Also the preliminary data coming from a 3 year trial a pp updated us on showd a significant reduction in patients going on to develop type 2 diabetes. As others have said from a drug development standpoint the safest thing you can do is repurpose a drug. It means there are already years of data or in this case decades. The probability new unexpected side effect is low even in a different population.

"I mean at one point in time we thought talc was safe, smoking was good for you and thalidomide was a great cure for morning sickness."

The amount of testing now required to approve a drug has increased rapidly in the past number of decades. This is due to previous previous fuck ups. We use these cases as teaching tools when teaching about drug development.

"I personally think taking this drug would slip me into disordered eating. It messes up your bowels anyway which sounds horrific. And I've read that some people are not eating much at all on it as they feel so sick. How do they get nutrients? Are they getting enough? Is there any data on that?"

One misconception regarding obesity is that they are gaining all their nutrients in fact obese people are more likely to be malnourished then there slim counterparts. But putting that aside most experience mild short term symptoms. Once nausea disapates you can resume eating. What this does alot is reduce craving which often eat to disordered eating of calorie dense nutrient lacking foods. There are 2 decades of research on this due to the fact that the drug is repurposed and there is no evidence of malnourishment on the drug.

"The fuss on this thread is because there isn't really a drug like this. We dont have post after post about trying to obtain statins or chemo do we?"

This is due to the fact that GPs can't prescribe it. There is no need for fuss to get statins or chemo.

"I'd like to see it regulated to only people with huge BMI and only prescribed by a GP in person. And possibly in conjunction with diet and exercise advice."

Why? Obesity increases a huge huge risk for a range of secondary conditions. Even moderate obesity takes 3-10 years off your life. Not to mention the massive cost of obesity related disorders to the NHS. If this could be reduced why would you prevent it? What is the benifit of reducing its use? Is it just the risk of pancreatitis. Here's a list of drugs that cause it should we outlaw all of them.
https://www.cigna.com/knowledge-center/hw/medicines-that-can-cause-pancreatitis-uf4368
Exercise and diet has been the advise for years. It is not working. You can talk about all the societal changes needed to create a more healthy population but that's not what your doing. You are berating people for getting their health in place and using this as a catch to do so. So let's use the treatment of depression as an exmple. Speech therapy and CBT are often effective in mild to moderate depression and are even more effective when undertaken in conjunction with antidepressants like SSRIs. So much like many WLI have pointed out the drug helps them focus on healthy eating ( removing often disordered eating associated with binge eating and excessive snacking) allowing them to focus on healthy meals. Gives them more energy to exercise. So I view mounjaro as effective in assisting in those changes in the same way SSRIs benifit those in getting treatment for mounjaro.

Also the 2 biggest risk factors are not drug related but are actually obesity and alcohol. If a poster said I had a glass kf wine last night would you automatically post similar. Statistically the alcohol is more likely to kill you.

They stay on it because it's a diabetic medicine.

Ozempic is a diabetic medicine, which is the same as wegovy which is for weightloss, however tirzepatide/mounjaro is aimed at weightloss though is suitable for diabetics as it is a GLP1 and GLP2 agonist.

Can someone explain... if I'm 14 stone now and over course of year I drop to 9 stone on MJ and I become normal bmi... you say I no longer qualify for it?

If you have the disease of obesity, your BMI is 30 or 27 with qualifying comorbidities and you get to a BMI of 22-25 whilst taking the medication then you can continue to take a maintenance dose indefinitely because obesity is a disease and does not necessarily go away however this is down to each individual.

What do you think happens if a further 50k people are lying about it to obtain it?

Many prescribers now require a video consult so I assume more prescribers will adopt this method.

But there are so many people on it now that are not at goal. So what happens to them down the line? Do we know?

Yes, they continue to take the medication whilst making lifestyle choices that complement weightloss and healthy habits.

Do you know statins for cholesterol and anticonvulsants for epilepsy can also cause pancreatitis, and even other deadly conditions?

GLP1s have existed for a long time and another PP posted a wonderful article about the fact that actually we have safety tested this medication more so than other medications that you previously mentioned such as thalidomide. It's because of thalidomide that things are run through so many safety tests. That's why the comparison to thalidomide is ridiculous.

How does this all work long term?

Well how does obesity work long term? I bet you need more than 1 hand to count the serious risks associated with morbid obesity.

Long term people continue to take this medication or continue with the habits they have learned whilst on the medication. Some people may need to take this medication or medications of this profile pending future developments for life or until medically indicated otherwise.

I think it's about 200 heath related consequences of obesity, off the top of my head

And poor ol'@Froggerz is so 'worried', they'd like us to get the lot, it seems!!

Plz ignore this goady, ignorant poster, anyone who reads this thread and is considering WLI

There are some excellent evidenced responses here that such unscientific types can't seem to follow. However often it's clearly explained to them.

Enjoy regaining your health, fellow jabbers- I know I am!

If you are still REALLY WORRIED, @Froggerz, the offer of you doing my laundry is still there😉

Froggerz “everyone is ignoring all the evidence”

Other posters:- present contradictory evidence.

Froggerz “you’re denying the evidence”

Well, I think what’s hi lighted in the to and fro is that NHS nationwide obesity clinics with therapy, be spoke treatments and the rest of it would be amazing. Ha! It’s clear when you begin the process of ordering and see all the treatments and tests offered that people have given up on the NHS and are doing their own research. I don’t blame the NHS - they need a huge injection of funds. When I finally got the courage to go for mounjaro the candour, comraderie, knowledge and generosity of spirit on here blew me away. Yup, there will always be people who deride it. And there will even be people pretending concern. I was for sure heading for co morbidies. Mounjaro is saving my life and self esteem. Honestly couldn’t care less what an anonymous person with an axe to grind says online There will always be extremes.

I'm not sure what is going on with Froggerz, she is repeatedly wanting to argue by using the term "argument" and trigger people, she comes across as a troll. She didn't reply to my long post as a 20 year experienced health professional and they positive impact this will have on the immense workload on the NHS and to relieve the pressures on the current stressed and burnt out staff!
It is actually none of her business who uses mounjaro and if she is concerned then she should be taking on the pharmacies that prescribe it and the companies who produce and manufacture it!

@Caffeineneedednow

I took this directly from the what I eat in a day thread. You think this sounds nutritious:

Fruit for breakfast.
Nothing since but planning chicken, peas and chips for dinner.
I'll only eat 5 chips

That's not the only example of disordered eating. It's not good, not good at all.

Give it a rest. You’ve made your heavily biased views clear. It is tragic to spend your time searching for extremes to prove a point.

I think cherry picking one persons day is a really weak argument.

They don't state amounts of anything, except chips, you haven't got a clue if this fits their daily calorific limit or if they're aiming for a weekly calorific limit or the macro nutrients they're aiming for.

We don't know this person's TDEE for achieving a low weight, we don't know their height, their age, or anything about their metabolism.

So whilst in principle this very cherry picked anecdote couldn't be quantified, so could be a small portion or could meet their daily or part of their weekly goal, I don't think you really have the credentials here to label whoever you've quoted as a disordered eater.

Yesterday I ate some chicken pieces for breakfast at 280 calories, a miso soup for 32 calories for lunch, and had a 300 calorie ready meal for my evening meal. If you based my entire diet on this one day you'd say I'm a disordered eater, but if I told you what I ate the day before or even today it would balance out.

You've said if you took mounjaro you'd be concerned that you would become a disordered eater, and therefore I think you're searching for hyperbolic examples as confirmation bias of your own projected feelings. You're bringing emotion into a conversation that is being upheld by factual information.

Nobody is denying the existence of eating disorders, it's already been discussed on the thread that people with eating disorders exist and find ways to abuse systems and medications, and there are already handfuls of things people with eating disorders do to restrict and purge.

Trying to pull the eating disorder card now isn't really the gotcha that you hope it is.

Not that simple. I was a lifelong size 10, until a cancer diagnosis. Post cancer I’m a 16-18 and struggling to lose weight. Not as simple as calories in and out, my metabolism is screwed up and two years of hormone treatment has a lasting effect.

I eat really well, been to a drive thru less than ten times in my life, might have a takeaway twice a year if that.

Don’t do much exercise bar walking and a bit of yoga, because actually my energy is limited and working full time in a job where I sit down for 40 hours a week is a priority for my energy as I need to keep a roof over my head (plus 2 DC’s).

Not on mounjaro but really sick of reading the judgy posts.

Again, ignoring every sensible counter point.

So you have taken one persons eating, for one day and proved disordered eating?

You think that poster has disordered eating. You could be right or could be wrong, but now you have outed them. How is that for care and concern for a poster with disordered eating?

How do you think that poster will feel if they read this thread and you used their post simply to prove your poorly thought out point.

Why have you ignored the huge amounts of posts on there of people eating very varied healthy diets?

Again, if someone has an eating disorder and lies to get this, it’s not relevant to this thread unless you believe the woman that died, lied to get hers.

People lying to get medication they shouldn’t be getting is a separate issue. If you have to lie to get medication, then it’s not for you. There is a reason it’s not for them and so of course the risks are higher.

Your posts aren’t about concern for anyone taking it. Your posts are focused on you. It wouldn’t be good for you so you don’t want anyone taking it. It’s not the right choice for you, so you believe it can’t be the right choice for anyone. That something you need to resolve on your own. But it’s not about you. Other peoples weightloss is not about you. Others people’s choices about medication isn’t about you.

@FaceLikeACrackedScreen 💐

Chemo is a pig but we take it because we have no choice. Good luck to you.

OK so you agree with my other arguments in terms of the safety profile of this drug?

On many weight loss threads outside of the WLI part of the site one meal a day and low carb diet is hailed as the best way to lose weight. This is essentially what this person is doing. They are limiting the low nutritional value chips and eating a lean protein source with vegetables. Do you go on the other weight loss threads and imply that posters have disordered eating based solely on them trying to lose weight through reduced carb intake or restricting the timing of eating?

Last night for dinner I also only had 5 chips, it was served with pork chops and roasted mediterranean vegetables. I would consider this a very healthy meal. I also had a fruit salad for breakfast and veg sticks and humous for lunch. I ate not dissimilar food to the poster you have described but as she has commented on limiting cards she has disordered eating?

You being concerned about your own ability to control your eating does not mean this drug is unsafe for the millions of people eligible to take it.

The misuse of this drug by people with eating disorders was also not the point of this thread. There has been an unfortunate death through its licenced use. This is unfortunately a potential of any drug.
When deciding if a drug should be approved regulators examine the risk to life of those on it vs not being on it. In this case the very very small risk of dangerous complications was deemed to be acceptable in comparison to the millions of lives that would be saved / drastically improved by using it for this lisenced purpose. The move more eat less idea is not working on a societal level. Many reasons why but the fake concern for people who have taken this as a Last resort after many attempts to lose weight is not concern it is judgement.

Processed food, additives, snacking all day, people just eating far too much, not taking enough exercise, the amount of alcohol people drink now , particularly women.

I was watching something on YouTube the other day and two ads popped up, one after the other: Dominoes and then an online pharmacy selling a weight loss drug.

Now, maybe that is producing a healthier society than the one that just has the Dominoes ad, which is of course the one we had before. But it didn't sit well with me and doesn't feel like a reflection of a healthy society.

I've been on mounjaro now since the beginning of March. I know this sounds hyperbolic and gushing, but it has changed everything for the better.

I hit an obese BMI during late perimenopause, after being on HRT. I , like other people with obesity, am educated on diet and exercise. I've been lifting weights 4 x a week for years. I've always struggled with my weight however but just about managed to stay 'overweight' through heavy lifting and going through the daily hell of being starving, arguing with myself about what not to eat, berating myself, intense sugar cravings leading to binges, fasting, low carb...I could write a book on it. It makes me sad to think of the daily struggle to stay 'overweight.'

This all stopped 'working' when I hit 50 and I hit obesity. I knew at that point that I was only going to get bigger and was staring down the barrel of a whole host of terrifying morbidities.

I now eat like a normal person. My eating is the opposite of disordered because there's no psychological warfare with my own brain, no cravings, no sugar rush, no binging. I just eat what I need and I really enjoy my food. My arthritis doesn't hurt, my mood is better, my gums don't bleed...there is a whole list of other ailments that have disappeared.

I have relied on medical intervention to support my quality of life in many ways: I've had IVF, taken citalopram for depression, HRT...these things have all had risks but have changed my life immeasurably by supporting what my own body wasn't able to do on its own and I'm so grateful.

That’s great to hear. I was considering taking it but this health has really worried me.

@Caffeineneedednow one small correction. We do not know yet if MJ killed the poor woman.