Opinions may Vary . A genuine question about why Meghan and Harry seem to attract such differing views.

[BasiliskStare]

I post this more in hope than experience but I would be really interested in a proper discussion about those who are fans or supporters of them , those who aren't and indeed ( of which there are many ) , those who are indifferent.

So - I'll start. There was an interesting post on another thread which said M&H come over as David and Goliath , standing up against "the Institution" - my paraphrase.

No spitting , no fighting , mind the furniture 😂

I agree, largely because they seem unable or unwilling to engage with a reasoned argument or discussion. They tend to have a few stock phrases, usually accusing pps of being haters, but almost never answer questions or explain their position. You’re right - the only possible explanation is that they’re following a brief for which they’re given a script, but are not articulate or interested enough to develop an argument or respond to questions.

They easy to spot once you start to notice. Lol 😉

I don’t think we can ever agree on this- I can’t accept the word “tainted” in this context.

We're back to the question that has been asked many times and has never been answered, which is - what is it that you so admire/like about H&M ?
People have been able to give reasoned arguments as to why they dislike them (fibbers , hypocrites etc) but supporters seem only to be able come back with insults.

Yes marrying Catherine was immensely helpful. She seems to be grounded and calm and not the sort of person to be constantly taking offense. The latter is probably very important in such a strange family as the royals can't help being with everything that surrounds them. Whilst i understand why some don't believe the Wales family do enough public duties, I think the benefit to their children of having devoted parents determined to put them first and spend extensive time with them can't be underestimated.

I think there has been a deliberate poke at William's mental health (and by extension, Catherine and the children), which is irrelevant to this thread. A common deflection tactic to any criticism of H&M. Best to stay on topic.

Do you support them because you just feel sorry for them or do they have other qualities that you admire?

Okay, poor choice of word. Affected then. I’m not belittling what anyone has been through, either in childhood or even as an adult as some of us have. I am just saying that it is possible to come to terms with trauma in some cases and William seems to be one of these

As always in these situations I hope Beery will answer your questions.

They are well known figures who started behaving differently than people in their position usually behaved. So it caused discussions. When I have a disagreement with my sibling no one gives a shit (and no one knows about it apart DH) but for famous people it’s different.

I'll have a go with Meghan. I'm afraid I don't see anything to admire in Harry, lots that needs therapy and lots that I feel compassion for, but nothing i admire.

Meghan is very focused on what she wants and not afraid to go for it. She tries new things, she keeps going, in the face of what must be devastating public criticism. She is aware of the need to make money and is trying to find ways to fund their lifestyle whilst married to someone who doesn't seem to function well outside the institution. She was thrust into a strange country and an even stranger country and was eager to contribute.

I believe that if she could listen to advice she would be far more successful than she is. Whatever the truth of the bullying stories the one thing that is clear is that Meghan struggles to admit that she is wrong or accept that there are some things she doesn't know or understand. If she could take time to listen and learn from experts she would be much more successful, just think about the episode of WLM when she was learning from Chef Choi, those clips were fairly endearing, much more so than insisting he name is Sussex.

I think the problem is that I don’t think there are any supporters here, so we can only speculate.

I remember being impressed with Meghan when she did the Grenfell cookery book. And there was a clothing line of some sort but I can’t remember the details….

I feel sorry for them because they’re just being used to generate clickbait revenue.

I don’t know either of them so don’t know if I’d like them or not. Harry seems like a good guy. He has done a lot for vets and served himself.

In Meghan’s cookery show which I watched, I thought she was quite nervous and uptight to begin with. She seemed to loosen up and start enjoying it towards the end and that’s when it improved.

Both of those were great projects. They also showed how much easier it is to set these things up when you have experts working with you who know how to put ideas into action. Meghan has plenty of ideas, it's the execution that let's her down in her post royal life.

Sorry @MrsLeonFarrell I quoted you but wasn't asking you specifically, I should have used word 'supporters' rather than 'you' . 🙂
However, I do agree with you, Meghan was so close but so far away. If only she had taken a bit of time to listen and learn, joined the RF with an open mind instead of believing she knew best, things could have been so different.

I will have a go, although I am not an unmitigated supporter.

Meghan was, before she met Harry, a self made millionaire. She worked her way up in an industry which is brutal and made a success of herself. She brought some innovative ideas into what she did in the RF, and seemed to be able to connect to a lot of people in a very genuine and meaningful way. She tried really hard to help the work of the RF, at least at the beginning.

Harry seems to engage well with the public. And his support for veterans is obviously heartfelt and the Invictus games seem to be very successful.

My opinions have changed slowly over time. When Harry got engaged to Meghan, I reckoned that he had matured at last, having sown his wild oats, and was embarking on marriage and (in time) parenthood. I never watched 'Suits' and knew very little about Meghan except that she was an actress. I had no idea she was mixed race until I came across an article in the run up to the wedding - I think the article had been written by Meghan herself. I felt sorry for Meghan because the press revelled in the controversy surrounding her relationship with her Dad and her half-sister. Remember all the 'Will he or won't he?' speculation about whether her Dad would attend the wedding. Not very nice having all that stress when you're planning a wedding. Anyway, the wedding itself went fine and I expected all of the excitement to die down and we would, in time, have a baby announcement.

I was really shocked when I heard that Harry was giving up his royal duties and moving abroad. But when I thought it over, I acknowledged that he had a horrendous childhood. The media hounded his mother and were now doing the same to his wife. Little wonder he would want to step away from it all and avoid his child(ren) growing up in the toxic glare of the media. He could leave all the bad memories behind and make a fresh start in a new country. I thought it was quite admirable that he was taking such a bold stance, and in doing so, putting his wife and child(ren) first. By the way, I can't quite remember if Meghan was pregnant at this point. Maybe the pregnancy announcement came later?

I was surprised that H&M did the high profile interview with Oprah. It didn't really fit in with their stated desire to break out of the goldfish bowl and lead a private life. I think it was during this interview that Harry revealed the pressure Meghan was under, to the point that she was suicidal. They also made the racism revelations. I believed all of the accusations. I mean, I wasn't there and I had no reason to doubt them. And we know that Diana wasn't treated very well by the firm. But then they said that they had a private marriage ceremony before their televised wedding. Now, at this point I started to get a bit sceptical. I mean, we know they didn't get married beforehand. We were there for their wedding. Well, I wasn't there in person, but we watched it on TV. Oprah herself was there. And the problem is that when you start to question the veracity of what someone is saying, it all becomes a bit suspect.

They still could have taken their money (from the Oprah show) and walked away. It could have been their swan song, before they settled down to lead a quiet life in their beautiful California home, raising their children and their chickens. But then came the book. And with the book, Harry made a lot of revelations, some of them quite serious (the row with William) and some of them rather sordid (describing the person he lost his virginity to). He washed a lot of dirty linen in public and, in some eyes, became a figure of ridicule, instead of a wronged victim. He showed very poor judgement and was very badly advised. I suspect he has burnt a lot of boats. Since then we've had the Netflix series and Meghan's latest offering.

I'm not a fan of H&M but I don't hate them either. Mainly I think it's very sad that Charles and Diana's toxic marriage continues to have repercussions for the next generation (and the next one again?). It's really tragic that William and Harry are estranged, especially when they have gone through so much together, including the loss of their mother at a young age. And I really feel for all of the children in the family (William's and Harry's), who will grow up without knowing their cousins, or being close to them. I also worry about what might happen if Harry and Meghan split up. And I really hope that doesn't happen. Because Harry might find himself in a very lonely place.

Watching the Diddy case on the news, I don't think I will ever understand blind loyalty. This ride or die for someone you do not know. I have never felt like that for anyone, it's an alien concept. Part of the assumption that disliking Harry and Meghan behaviour is in defence of supporting the other side which again is often not true. Part of the problem with debate is the middle ground of Meghan and Harry supporters who like them but can see they have done some wrong are unlikely to post. It's hard to have a discussion when one side is willing to concede that there are faults with the royal family and H and M and the other side only sees perfection and compromise of opinion as a weakness. It similar to the feud, one side is scoring points with a side not even playing the game.

Neither the Grenfell Cookery Book or the Smart Works clothing line were set up by Meghan Markle. Smart Works existed a long time before H&M got together. As with many of the Archewell "initiatives" she attached herself to an existing project.

I wonder how the die hard fans would react if H&M admitted that they have lied and made a public apology to the RF .

& it's very possible that I do - but they are congenial twats.

So DH & his siblings - whose father worked in different countries went to school in the US for a while ( near Woodstock I think ) Half my family on my maternal grandmother's side went to live in I think North Carolina - not sure if that is the worst of the Carolinas.b My niece went on a scholarship to school in Michigan ( not university - what I would call secondary school) DH worked for many US based companies before he retired so we have friends from that - I have a photo of me pushing my son around Ann Arbor when I spent some of my maternity leave there & I worked for a US based multinational. So between us we all have many US friends and also the nearest I reckon I will get to a son in law is New York born and bred , then Yale , then came over to study and Cambridge and been here since. So of all the criticisms you can level at me ( and they will be legion) 😂the one thing I don't think I am guilty of is lazy tropes about Americans - Indeed possible SIL says when he rings home they think he has an English accent . He doesn't but I think he has picked up some intonation. I can understand not liking the lazy tropes but I promise not from the Basilisk household.

And I really feel for all of the children in the family (William's and Harry's), who will grow up without knowing their cousins, or being close to them.

The Wales kids have lots of second cousins around the same ages. I'm not sure there will be a huge hole in their lives. They probably barely remember Harry, and Meghan not at all.

But I think it’s a character flaw that she can’t carry things through. I’d guess she’s very impatient and wants things to happen immediately when in reality, building a successful project or company takes years of hard graft. Meghan wants instant results - she’s after the recognition and adulation and isn’t interested in the quiet slog of development. I think this may be at the root of her problems with staff. She has an idea and if they don’t make it happen pretty much overnight she gets frustrated and bored and blames them.

It’s Harry’s children who will really miss out.

No, I totally get it @BasiliskStare . I lived mostly in California and a bit in New York, which is perhaps not the most typical parts of the US. The uni lot in particular seem to think most Americans hang around playing banjos on the porch in between shooting things. Then again, a lot of the people I worked with in America thought I must know the Queen!