To insist on good morning even when grumpy?

[Sawadeekaka]

My teen dd isn't a morning person and goes to bed way too late too.
In the morning she's storming about and doesn't answer when I say good morning or have a good day when she leaves. Gets unpleasant when we hurry her so she doesn't miss the school bus (as then she has no way of getting to school other than us driving her).
I've told her that it's really not nice for us and that while she doesn't have to be cheerful or chatty that a minimum level of politeness is expected. A good morning to my good morning and a thank you to have a good day and no rudness if we need to hurry her so that she doesn't miss the bus.
This morning I said to her good morning and she refused to respond. When I told her it's not acceptable, she swore at me.
So now I intend to discuss and punish her.
My dh think iabu and that I should just accept she's grumpy in the morning and not speak to her at all. I think the basics of politeness are important in any family. If one of her friends or teachers was there, she would manage to be polite, that's for sure, so she's entirely capable of it.
Aibu?

😂😂
Touche!

I was just saying to DH we should probably do the same as well since it's not good for adults either. But I suspect DD's older sibling may not play along. Younger ones and us will be easier.

I'm with you OP, I think in a family it's important to be polite and courteous to each other. She's failed on three counts - 1) failing to get herself up, and putting you out by asking you to do it 2) not being polite and responding in the morning 3) swearing at you when you make a point of it. I wouldn't tolerate any one of those. People say oh she's a teen like that's an excuse, yes their brains are different (I remember it well!) but just as you teach toddlers to say please and thank you (and I bet they don't mean it!) it's important to remind teens that they aren't the centre of the universe, as much as they might feel like they are.
If her alarm doesn't work then she needs different ideas - 3 alarms set around the room, or a vibrating watch, or go to bed earlier etc etc. That's her responsibility. She doesn't have to be chatty bit she needs to be polite. And swearing at her parents, no matter of the circumstances is totally unacceptable. Basic manners don't cost anything but they are worth a lot.

OP hasn’t been belligerent at all.

This expectation for woman to play nicey nicey is really damaging.

You should apologise to OP.

Have you tried saying something else? Like do you want a coffee?

I agree with you. She doesn't have to say much, but a 'morning', or a nod, or a hello, or even a friendly grunt would be fine - some kind of acknowledgement that you're there and you are part of a family and you're doing things for her. I think it's rude to ignore you, and just because she's a teenager doesn't excuse that. She might be moody or tired or whatever - you can understand that it makes it harder for her, but it doesn't excuse her not having the most minimal standards of politeness. I think getting into a stand-off in the morning won't help, though, so it's probably something that needs to be discussed at another time of day, expectations clearly laid out, you explaining why politeness and family understanding is important, how it comes across when she ignores you - she is old enough to understand that if she appears ungrateful and surly, that people won't want to be around her or will feel like she doesn't appreciate them at all. Yes, home/family might be where you are allowed to be yourself, be comfortable, not put on acts for the outside world - but it doesn't mean you can just take out all your inner feelings of grumpiness on them by stopping being polite and just doing whatever you want (or don't want). She needs to learn other ways of getting the grumpiness out of her system. I wouldn't make her chat or be cheerful or anything, but a mere acknowledgement that you are there and have said good morning, yes. That seems the very minimal standard of politeness to me.

I am often surprised by what parents of teenagers let them get away with, though. Because of online zoom sessions, I have been able to see more interactions between teenagers and parents than before because of my job, and I do find the level of rudeness in the way some teens speak to the parents shocking. There might be consequences after the session is over, so I am aware that I don't know the full picture, but it happens repeatedly and with little sign that it's anything out of the ordinary.

As a teenager I remember being deeply deeply irritated by everything my mother said or did, even how she ate would annoy me sometimes. If I was in a strop about something unrelated and she had said good morning and I’d not replied and then she’d taken this personally, I can see a teenage row happening. If she’d then reacted by stopping my lovely dad from helping me in the mornings…. Well I can see how a teenager would view this.

Better to approach with humour if you can. My mum always treated everything I did like this serious personal attack and we don’t have a great relationship now. If she’d just managed to see things with humour or forgive me for being a teenager, we would have got in a lot better.

I don’t think you should drop the good mornings as that might signal a punishment for her (even if she hates them). Just give her a sleepy good morning and wander off and don’t pause for a response or anything like that. Keep saying good morning if it’s important to you, but treat it like a blessing that doesn’t need a response from her, rather than making it a battle of wills! Just model the behaviour you want to see and hope that she catches up eventually.

also she clearly needs more sleep! I wish I had a parent to take my phone off me these days. She’s probably scrolling until 3am!

Just let her huff around and ignore it, obviously a reminder of time for the bus you can't help that's needed, but forget the good morning and insisting she interact. I was terrible in the mornings, I repeatedly said please just leave me alone when I'm getting ready, it's nothing personal but I'm just not good and I want to just get on with things. My mother went on and and on and on and tried to force conversation out of me and went off if I didn't reply and accused me of being rude and disrespectful and awful child after all she did for me. I thought and still think it's pretty disrespectful to ignore repeated requests to be left alone. Every single morning you are literally baiting her to then punish her, I still think it's very weird behavior. She won't be in this space forever, pick your battles and just let it go.
You yourself said politness is all about kindness and consideration of others, consider leaving her alone in the morning 🤣

As mentioned punishment is for swearing at me this morning.
The FIRST time I have followed up on the lack of response was this morning. So it's like I have repeatedly badgered her.
Her morning behavior is going downhill. But it's true the good morning isn't the bigger issue and that's what we need to address.

Search the article 'The biological reason why it's so hard for teenagers to wake up early for school' on theconversation.com. It's got lots of links to scientific research about how teenagers have different biology and need to sleep later in the mornings, with recommendations for schools to begin around 10am optimally to reflect this. The truth is that it's much harder and unpleasant for teens to get up in the morning than it is for adults.

OP I think you're an additional cause of your teen being grumpy. She probably dreads seeing you in the mornings at the one moment in the day when she's exhausted and would do anything other than get out of bed.

Maybe the problem is that you do come across in a very unpleasant way on here, all veiled anger dressed as upbeat responses in your posts to people who don't agree with you, that kind of thing. I think you don't realise how authoritarian and rigid you sound in trying to always get one over on posters who don't tell you that you're right and I bet that's how you talk to your DD too.

I think what you expect is right - politeness - I totally expect that too - but you're delivery is off - at least in what you are demanding in the morning - and it's driving a big wedge (I'd imagine) between you and your DD. Like other posters have said there's other ways of dealing with this that would still communicate the same need for politeness but in a much more effective way.

How can it possibly be driving a big wedge between me and my DD when literally today is the first time I have called her out on this? 🙄
Please explain

OP I think you're an additional cause of your teen being grumpy. She probably dreads seeing you in the mornings at the one moment in the day when she's exhausted and would do anything other than get out of bed.

And you're basing this on me saying to her 'Good morning' and 'Have a nice day'? Sometimes having to hurry her not to miss the bus. Today was literally the first time I have called her on the lack of response.

And then you wonder apparently this is 'veiled anger dressed as upbeat responses'? Maybe it's this kind of unnecessary and goady nastiness veiled as helpfulness which causes it?

Sorry but nothing's bloody worse when you're really not a morning person than having someone on your case trying to make you act cheery. Why bother trying to make her act something she's not feeling?

Make her aware that getting to school is her responsibility, and if she misses the bus you won't be bailing her out. Other than that, let her get on with it.

I am assuming that she's more pleasant at other times, like when she comes home and in an evening. If not, then you need to be aware that something might be going on with her, or with her mental health .. but if it's really just a case of her not being a morning person, leave the poor girl alone.

I am with you. I have three teenagers so understand you pick your battles, but this absolutely a battle I would pick.

This is about mutual respect. You earn for her, cook for her, care for her, transport her.... and she can't say good morning? No. The most important thing you can do for teenagers is reinforce that you are a person with feelings and thoughts, not am automaton who fulfils the role of 'mother'. You deserve (as do they) respect and care.

And by God, if any of my children ever dared swear at me there would be merry hell to pay in this house. I've managed to get one to 20, one 17 and one 15 without anyone ever daring that so far and I'm sure that's because I've always had strong boundaries about recognising that everyone in the family is an actual person and we work together.

It can be incredibly hard to vocalise things when you are in certain states of mind. Physically pulling the sound out of your body etc.
If you would like a positive interaction with your DD before the day starts, could you offer a hug/ask her to join you for a cup of tea in silence/wish her a good day with no expectation of reply as these are all non-verbal interactions and ways of expressing your love.
Her behaviour feels rude because you're putting things into the world (words, wishes, manners) that she is not giving back. But if you could reframe your interactions around reciprocal communication that isn't so hard for her in the morning and doesn't require words/false emotion then you are interacting in a way that works with her state of mind in the morning.

I think I would settle for her being up and ready and out the door on time and no actual rudeness.

I am not a morning person, if as soon as I went downstairs my DH said "good morning" and then took umbrage and tried to control my responses I would be pretty irritated.

This ritual good morning thing would really get my back up. Just say "morning love" as she comes into the kitchen and ignore her go on with what you're doing.

If she's coming in and slamming plates and glaring at you and being rude then of course that's not acceptable. But if she is just coming in and silently/grumpily sitting down then say a quick hi darling and leave her be.

I think you want to control the interactions of the morning, dressing it up as politeness and good manners, but really its about you wanting it to go your way, the way that you feel it should be, and not anyone else's way. I think you probably also struggle to allow her to feel grumpy without feeling that she is putting those feelings into you, and ruining your mood too. Well, you don't have to feel grumpy just because she is, she is separate, and there is emotional space between you.

You can't control someone else's mood and force your teen to say brightly "good morning mother!" when actually she feels tired and grumpy with the prospect of another school day ahead of her when really she'd like to do something else. Of course she has to get up and she must go to school, that's the reality, and she is doing that. But unless she is being very aggressive and very rude, don't try to control her mood about it.

The idea of punishing her for not saying "good morning" really sounds ridiculous to me, sorry, but it really does. You are going to really alienate her if you go ahead with that idea, punishing someone for their feelings or for not interacting as you dictate.

No, hugs don't work in the morning (my other kids get a morning hug before leaving, my DD absolutely doesn't want a morning hug!!)

DH makes her a coffee already

For about the millionth time, punishment is for SWEARING!!!!

Except playing nicey nicey is exactly what OP is requesting from her daughter...

No she isn't; a quick good morning isn't playacting anything, it's minimal acknowledgement that someone else exists in your own family. She's not being forced to converse or act cheery or anything beyond the most minimal politeness - saying hello/good morning to someone in her own family

Instead of saying good morning, you could ask her 'how are you this morning?' Allow her to tell you if she is feeling tired, grumpy or whatever.
Caring is more important than politeness.

A basic level of civility is reasonable. Machine talking and constant questioning is not (my mum love the 2nd and wondered why l didn't wish to partake in the morning!). My partner and l aren't morning people so talk little which suits me fine

She needs to get with the system and get up to go to school. No giving her a lift if she misses the bus. She needs to experience natural consequences

But yeah on AIBU invent and embellish random back stories. Completely ignoring the original poster!

One occasion
Just oneof not replying and you have started a thread?
Yikes
Yes I assumed it was an ongoing thing which is why I suggested backing off.
I would take a deep breath, not take the grumpiness personally and listen.
Listen to those of us who have been through survived the teenage years.
The grumpiness is part hormones, tiredness, stress and the changes that come when your child transitions to adulthood.
Its normal.
Talk to her without attacks and punishment.
She needs you to be solid, honest and understanding.
Stop the hyperbole of silliness like nuns
/ silence etc
My other advice stands.

Exactly. And all the alternatives that people are suggesting (hugs, asking how she is etc) are much more intrusive and demanding of her than a grunted 'morning.

Refusing that one word acknowledgement isn't about being not a morning person/a teen/introverted. It's a big 'f* you' to her family members, and she knows it.

Erm, no, it's not the first time. Read the OP. It isn't the first time dd hasn't responded, today is the first time OP has called her out on it.