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Here you'll find advice from parents and teachers on special needs education.

EHCP support thread no. 4

956 replies

Phineyj · 28/10/2024 10:17

We've nearly filled the thread again, so here's a new one. Welcome everyone: newcomers, people stuck in the process; battle-hardened veterans of many years...

Here are links to previous threads:

EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Macramepotholder · 28/10/2024 20:52

Arrrghh the LA have simply come back and said:

Based on the evidence currently available to the Speech and Language Therapy services, they have determined that the needs that Xx is currently presenting with can be addressed through universal provisions already available to schools. If there is new evidence to suggest otherwise, this can be shared with the service to determine whether or not the new assessed needs would meet the threshold for an assessment to be necessary.

At this stage, the LA will not be commissioning a SLT assessment for Xx. The LA will be willing to review this upon the receipt of evidence which you have stated below will be forthcoming.

'Willing'!!

(I said the senco would be providing evidence she needs SLT which he has said he will do, along with getting a letter from the actual SLT she has actually seen).

So I've written back to say we'll proceed to JR then, as they can't determine that without an assessment.

Honestly it's like being in a parallel universe. Have copied the DCS to all correspondence so maybe he'll sort it out. Or not.

SavedHistory · 01/11/2024 11:46

Hey everyone!

I have received a draft copy of my DS’s EHCP.

I am totally unaware of everything. I find it all confusing. The layout of the draft, all the APPs attached. My son does not need to attend a special school. He is currently in reception in mainstream and seems to be doing ok with lots of support - his teachers are happy with him. An ARP school would be useful. Can anyone provide a quick cheat sheet for what I should be looking for?

Everything is ‘F Education’ as responsible agency and all adults/parents around child and SLT. I am attaching a bit as example.

Is there a EHCP checking service?

I am unaware of what should be included e.g types of activities directly related to English/Math, interventions to improve his social and emotional needs…And who should actually be facilitating these activities? SLT? Teacher assistant? It says banding D2 £8,200

I need some reassurance that should I agree with this EHCP now and if in the yearly review feel like no outcome has been reached, his needs are more, could I fight to change it? Tighten it up further?

Thank you all. 💐

EHCP support thread no. 4
EHCP support thread no. 4
BrightYellowTrain · 01/11/2024 13:33

@SavedHistory SOSSEN has a reasonably priced draft checking service if that is something you would be interested in.

The EHCP should cover all needs and provision required. Go through all the reports with highlighters. Highlight all DS’s special educational needs in one colour and all the provision to meet the needs in another colour. Each need should have corresponding provision.

Then go through the draft and make sure all the highlighted needs are in B and the highlighted provision is in F. Make a note of anything the LA have omitted from the draft, any needs without corresponding provision, any woolly and vague wording, and anything the reports have failed to include.

When you go through F, look out for vague and woolly wording. For example, “access to”, “would benefit from”, “regular”, “up to”, “or equivalent”, “opportunities for”, “as appropriate”, “would be useful/helpful”, “such as”, “e.g.”, “etc.”, “as required”, “as advised”, “key adult(s)”, “small group”. Provision must be detailed, specified and quantified, otherwise the EHCP isn’t worth the paper it is written on and cannot be enforced.

Your screen shots are too vague and woolly. To give you some examples of what I mean:
‘For example’, ‘such as’, ’etc.’ need removing
‘High level of pre-teaching…’ needs amending - what is a high level?
‘High adult:child ratio’ needs amending - what is a high ratio?
‘Is available’ doesn’t mean DS will get it.
What ‘training’?
How long will the 10 SLT sessions be (20-45 mins is too large a range? DS could get 20 mins exactly each time.) and at what interval? What is ‘guidance’ (personally I would be pursuing a removal of SLTA).
‘Consist of…’ means they could all be purely observation in class.
What is a ‘small group’?
‘School staff’ - who exactly? The receptionist, cleaner?
LSA - what training, experience, qualifications?

When you come across vague and woolly wording, check the reports to see if they are woolly and vague or if the LA has watered down provision. If the reports are vague and woolly, ask the LA to go back to the report writer(s) to make the reports detailed, specified and quantified. Provision (including who provides it) in EHCPs is taken from the reports, so if the reports are vague and woolly, the EHCP will be too. If the LA has watered down provision, make sure to request the LA sticks to the wording in the reports.

Then make sure any health or social care provision that educates or trains is in F. For example, LAs like to put therapies like SALT and OT in G (health care provision) when it belongs in F.

Request all the required amendments. However, if the LA refuses to amend when you make representations, don’t get drawn into a prolonged back and forth (which LAs can sometimes drag out for months - 18 months in one case I have come across recently) with the LA that delays finalising. That does not mean not checking and cross referencing the reports/evidence/EHCP, and it does not mean not making those representations where you highlight and explain what amendments are needed, and you can still try to work with the LA to settle the outstanding disputes. What it does mean is potentially months and months aren’t wasted without any provision and without submitting an appeal if necessary. If the LA drags out finalising an initial EHCP, the provision in the draft does not legally have to be provided. It isn’t finalised. And when LAs get involved in a prolonged back and forth, an appeal is still sometimes needed anyway. Going back and forth means delaying submitting any potential appeal for the time going back and forth (because you can’t submit an appeal without the right of appeal, which you get on finalisation).

EHCPs are reviewed at least annually. The EHCP can be amended as part of this annual review process. However, there is no guarantee the LA will agree to amend following the annual review. They may force you to appeal. If when the LA finalise the initial EHCP, it needs amendments the LA is not willing to make, you can appeal.

Phineyj · 01/11/2024 13:36

Hi @SavedHistory. I used the EHCP checking service from these guys, but others may know of better, as I thought it was a bit basic (if cheap).

talking-sense.org/advice/

IPSEA have got a useful document that says what should be included.

www.ipsea.org.uk/what-sections-should-an-ehc-plan-have

Expect to spend several hours doing this!

Also you can ask for any changes you like but the LA don't have to make them (you have the option of appealing though).

@macramepotholder sorry the LA are still playing silly buggers.

OP posts:
SavedHistory · 01/11/2024 14:08

@BrightYellowTrain

Thank you so much!! I got the draft 4 weeks ago but I was extremely unwell and asked to be given extra time. Today, they emailed me with an updated draft (OT report came in) but I have asked for the OT report and they jusr directed me to OT bit in the draft EHCP instead of the actual repport written by OT. I sent back an email requesting report and asking for meeting.

If I could bother you with with a few more questions:

Will I be penalised if I were to ask for another 2 weeks to review the draft? Could I say in light of the update, I would like a further 15 days?

I checked the EP report and I believe it does need amending. Will the EHCP service also check the reports? Or is there any service for this?

@Phineyj will look through the website and do it over weekend. But I have already gone over the 15 days review time and they are now pushing for me to accept the draft.

I am slowly looking through the previous threads to learn as much as I can. Initially, I was planning to accept everything but I genuinely believe the reports need changing…in my honest opinion the provisions seems like normal differentiation/intevention school provides to children without an EHCP.

I am shocked that something designed to be helpful is actually done through such tricks. In a way the parent cannot even trust the professionals to bave written the truth…so sad to see many parents having to become detectives and investigators…

BrightYellowTrain · 01/11/2024 14:36

@SavedHistory you have nothing to lose by asking for more time.

Do you have the OT’s contact details? If so, contact them directly.

SOSSEN’s draft check service doesn’t include reading all the reports/evidence. If they are LA reports, you will already know they are unlikely to be amazing. Birkett Long and Watkins offer comprehensive draft check services. Personally, I think they are expensive, but lots are happy with them. A huge number of advocates offer their services. If you go down that route, choose carefully. Many advocates are good, but some are dreadful and can do more harm than good. I would save your money in case you need to appeal.

now pushing for me to accept the draft.

Just so you are aware, the LA doesn’t need your permission or for you to accept the draft to finalise. They can finalise even if you object to the content.

SavedHistory · 01/11/2024 15:47

BrightYellowTrain · 01/11/2024 14:36

@SavedHistory you have nothing to lose by asking for more time.

Do you have the OT’s contact details? If so, contact them directly.

SOSSEN’s draft check service doesn’t include reading all the reports/evidence. If they are LA reports, you will already know they are unlikely to be amazing. Birkett Long and Watkins offer comprehensive draft check services. Personally, I think they are expensive, but lots are happy with them. A huge number of advocates offer their services. If you go down that route, choose carefully. Many advocates are good, but some are dreadful and can do more harm than good. I would save your money in case you need to appeal.

now pushing for me to accept the draft.

Just so you are aware, the LA doesn’t need your permission or for you to accept the draft to finalise. They can finalise even if you object to the content.

That is quite scary. So, there could be a scenario whereby an ECHP is finalised without parents agreement…parents can appeal though?

I just got this reply:
‘The OT advice is combined with the other health services to create the APP C (Joint health report) so its not separate as such, just added on to.’

Is this right?

Ponche · 01/11/2024 16:03

@SavedHistory I used the SOSSEN draft EHCP analysis service a few months ago and was really happy with it. It cost £100 and pointed out quite a few issues I otherwise wouldn’t have realised.

I used the analysis to suggest amendments and some of these were accepted. Some weren’t, but I was going to appeal anyway.

BrightYellowTrain · 01/11/2024 18:38

@SavedHistory yes, the LA could finalise even if you object to the content/placement. You will get the right of appeal when the LA finalise the EHCP, so if you want to you can appeal.

The OT should be giving their own advice and information but they can present that anyway they like as long as it is sufficient. Is the report sufficient?

ThatsGoingToHurt · 03/11/2024 13:04

My Tribunals final evidence deadline was 1/11 at noon. 30 minutes before the deadline the LA sent a SEND7 requesting a three week extension! They’ve
only been aware of deadline since July! FFS!

BrightYellowTrain · 04/11/2024 13:20

As frustrating as it is, that is completely normal. Sometimes they don’t even bother sending a SEND7 to request an extension.

Macramepotholder · 04/11/2024 17:22

Does anyone have any advice on how to get a JR pre-action letter done? I've put in queries with Coram and SOSSEN but they both just have a holding message saying they'll get back in due course and we're on something of a deadline.

Also interested in approximate costs- have decided to shell out for a private SALT assessment anyway so full range of needs are identified as I think the LA one will be insufficient, so if it's going to cost loads I might as well leave it and just use the private assessment much as I want to stick it to them.

BrightYellowTrain · 04/11/2024 19:52

@Macramepotholder all firms are inundated at the moment. Coram is one of the busiest and one of the cheapest. If you go down the pre-action letter route, there are other firms you could try, e.g. Birkett Long, Watkins, Watkins & Gunn, Simpson Millar, Sinclairs and Bailey Wright. Some advocacy services do them cheaper. Be careful going down that route. Make sure they know what they are doing. I have seen some dreadful attempts. Also, if the pre-action letter doesn’t work, some firms want to send their own letter first. And some LAs take pre-action letters written by someone without a legal aid contract less seriously because they know the parents will then need to look for a firm to take the JR proceedings on.

The cost when it isn’t a guarantee of a watertight report is why parents don’t tend to go down the pre-action letter route for ‘just’ failure to seek advice and information in the NA although they can in theory. For a solicitor, you are looking at nearly £1k to well over £1k. Personally, I wouldn’t bother unless you have money to burn or know what you are doing yourself. The money would be better spent on assessments.

Macramepotholder · 04/11/2024 20:20

Thank you, that's really helpful and confirmed what I suspected about just paying for the assessment (which is a lot less than 1k and will get me a proper report).

They've annoyed me so much I just really wanted to! But I'll save the money and energy for another part of the fight. They will almost definitely refuse to issue as their standard MO so the tribunal won't look well on them.

BrightYellowTrain · 04/11/2024 20:24

@Macramepotholder make sure the SALT has experience of SENDIST and will write a tribunal standard report.

Macramepotholder · 04/11/2024 21:05

Yes, I have! And she comes highly recommended by others locally. I think it's her main business...

handmademitlove · 05/11/2024 16:31

Seeking info from the collective hive mind!

LA have responded to my level 1 complaint that "not known to service" is not a proper response to a request for advice. They have responded to say that they only have a duty to ask for information - not actually get it, and as the services asked have declined to contribute, that is the end of that!

Any suggestions on how to respond when requesting it is progressed to level 2 complaint? I am assuming this is not a legitimate response!

BrightYellowTrain · 05/11/2024 19:23

@handmademitlove a response of not known to the service does not fulfil the LA’s duty to seek advice and information under reg 6(1)(h) despite what the LA is saying. That type of response is not sufficient. If the LA genuinely cannot fulfil their duty in-house/via the NHS, they should commission independent advice and information.

See this page - We are aware some services respond with a letter saying something like “not known to this service”. However, this does not meet your LA’s legal duty to get advice in relation to needs, outcomes and provision.

Have you contacted the professionals/services directly too?

handmademitlove · 05/11/2024 19:36

@BrightYellowTrain I know! the ipsea template is what I based the complaint email on - and yet the complaints department went and asked SEN team, who said they sought advice - and they can't force them to respond as they are nhs and not LA.

Our LA are known for their avoidance - They pretty much only include reports from EP and then any services they are already under. I am not sure how to force them to seek assessment elsewhere in the case that DD is not known to nhs services.
The wording in the code of practice is unclear - it talks about the LA "must gather advice and information" but it has been suggested that the EP report is sufficient to meet that point. How to ensure specialist assessment where needed eg for significant sensory issues relating to ASD which our local OT don't do. I suspect they will rely on the EP report as I know this has been the case with others. Am awaiting the EP report and hoping they have included the need for specialist assessment.

BrightYellowTrain · 05/11/2024 19:47

@handmademitlove Just because the LA has responded to your complaint in that way doesn’t make it true. You know that. They know that. It’s a matter of going through the motions. Reg 6(1)(h) is clear. It doesn’t matter what is normally offered locally on the NHS.

The choice is either JR (although many don’t go down this route for failure to seek info under Reg 6(1)(h) because it doesn’t guarantee a watertight report, and you have already acknowledged an alternative remedy) &/or seek independent assessments.

handmademitlove · 05/11/2024 20:53

Thank you. I think both will be needed - I will push the complaint to stage 2 and also do my research on finding independent assessment providers that I can request the LA to commission given that they acknowledge that their own providers cannot meet need.

So frustrating.

Mummynwe · 06/11/2024 15:36

Hi

I just wanted to know if the draft ehcp is quantified and supportive of my child and not wholly and vague.

EHCP support thread no. 4
EHCP support thread no. 4
EHCP support thread no. 4
Mummynwe · 06/11/2024 15:41

Please can someone help me check if the draft ehcp is appropriate and wholly.

EHCP support thread no. 4
EHCP support thread no. 4
EHCP support thread no. 4
MinnieTruck · 06/11/2024 16:18

Just checking in🫡

OnlyHope33 · 06/11/2024 22:20

Good evening,

I am back once again to pester anyone who has knowledge / experience regarding a specialist school declining a place due to level of SEMH needs? I spoke to co-ordinater today and the specialist school I chose for DS to attend has responded that they are not able to meet need due to the level of SEMH need. The school is non independent, on research of the school they mention that they cater for children with ASD / Autism conditions.
DS'S co-ordinater stated that they will be sending it back to them as the response is not sufficient and it does not specify whether they can meet provision in section I. I assume the outcome / response will lead to appeal.
However I would just like to know if it's a common occurance that specialist schools cherry pick students? On paper, the school I named as first choice, seems to be the best school to cater to DS needs, has been continually rated outstanding, the response has somewhat surprised me. My expectation was that they would state they are at capacity. DS's EHCP does not specify 1-2-1 support, though I believe it should. Is it possible that with no mention of 1-2-1 support in DS's EHCP has contributed to their response? With that in mind should I push for 1-2-1 support? I was informed by DS's co-ordinater that they typically would not specify 1-2-1 in the EHCP as specialist schools are better equipped, have smaller class sizes etc. unless DS was attending a mainstream school. Is there such a thing as specialist schools that specialises or are more equipped to manage SEMH needs? I have done a little investigation but nothing really comes up. Again any help would be most appreciated, thanks in advance.