'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Good luck AD!

Well, I reckon I've got DD's preferred routine down to a T... After 50 mins awake, we get fussiness so I feed her until drowsy then put her down to nap. She seems to need about 5 naps a day - 2 in the morning and afternoon of 45mins-1 hour each and 2 hours at lunchtime. If I get the routine even slightly out, she lets me know. I messed up the last nap before bed-time tonight so she only got ten mins before she woke up. She held out ok until I got her to bed (just the usual 5 minute yelling session once I put her nappy on and dress her after her bath), passing out immediately, no dummy or anything, half an hour sooner than usual. Great! I thought. Nope. She awoke half an hour later - her usual going to sleep time - whinged for her dummy and I had to remove it then replace it another four or five times before she finally succumbed again. I refuse to leave it in, that way lies madness.

No great shakes compared with what some of you have to put up with, but it told me how precious her routine is....

...which is why I'm slightly dreading this weekend. We're off to the WOMAD festival in Caceres, which means her routine will be totally messed with, despite my best efforts to get her to sleep at her usual times. I'm looking forward to the festival, but full of trepidation about the damage it will do to the napping system we've evolved over the last three months and what impact that may have on her overnight sleep patterns. Wish me luck.

Fake shouting!! Don't think DD's caught on to that idea yet, but I bet she will given time...

Have a restful(!) weekend, everyone x

Angeldog three hours of nap...wow...I wouldn't know what to do with myself, I'm now an expert in what I can get done in 45 minutes...fingers crossed all the napping pays off and you get a good night tonight

IC - good luck although your DD might surprise you...when we've been out and about and I've been dreading how to manage the routine, it's usually turned out ok and not been too difficult afterwards. Enjoy the festival

Loved the sleeping through the night - a baby's perspective...so true! I think I'm almost trained...

AngelDog for the 3 hour nap and for the baby's perspective, made me smile.

DrDoobs long may it continue.

YellowButterfly LOL at your DD, sounds like she is going to keep you on your toes

IC sounds like you have napping down to a tee. Good luck with your outing. I found that my DD is fairly adaptable and if she is in her pram, will fall asleep at her usual naptimes but not before. I also have friends whose DC have shown no signs of sleep regression

Jcee I haven't noticed any developmental changes with my DD either. Night time sleep seems to be back normal - went down a dream tonight.

Feeling a bit down today. Naptime is still an issue for DD and am getting a bit fed up with it now. It feels like I spend most of the day trying to persuade her to go to sleep and that she spends most it tired.

Her naps are up to about 40 mins now but just can't seem to get her to go longer. She def needs a longer nap at lunchtime and she is tired again within about 30 mins of waking and usally snoozes while she feeds. She had 2 40 min naps in her cot today and another in her pram. She woke from this one but was crying with her eyes shut so I rocked the pram and walked her around the kitchen and she went back to sleep - for 10 mins and then repeated the same thing.

Also she can't settle herself and my back is feeling the effects of hanging over her cot for 20 mins at every naptime.

I'm trying to stick to a schedule but after 4 nights of waking at 3am and 6.30am, DD has gone totally random. Oh they do like to keep us on our toes don't they?

OK someone pass the chocolate, I am in shock and blood sugar levels are dangerously low - DD has just settled herself for second nap of the day

Little bit of shouting but no crying - hooray

Hey all,

Think i'm building up to a rant so bear with me.

PDog do you dream feed? If we feed DD at 11pm she sleeps through until 6am, if we don't she wakes at 2am (just a thought)

Ok rant i can't hold it in.

I know my DD is older 26 weeks now and 20 corrected. I'm meant to start weaning this weekend and I'm stressing.

I know this is about sleep but no-one else really cares. Gp, paeds, HV (my mum to some extent) all are offering conflicting/no advice.

DD has bad reflux and really bad constipation which we are battling with on a daily basis.

Do you guys know anyone who have reflux/constipated babies who have been weaned?
We don't know what to do with her meds i.e., reduce/stop etc
Currently we are giving 100 ml extra boiled water a day, but to do this we are adding sugar so she takes it [hmmm]
we are also giving lactulose but it gives her terrible tummy ache .

DD is wonderful, her sleep is better, but still tough, I still can't get on with anything such as cleaning etc during the day, I can't even wash bottles!!!

In the evening she goes to bed at 6 but i'm not really convinced she's fully asleep until around 8pm so still can't get on with anything until then. I have tried but it always ends up with me being very stressed and DD upset.

So DH and I are running around like crazy people in the evening and not getting to bed until midnight.
my kitchen looks like a cross between and pharmacy and a chemistry lab.

She can only just hold her head properly, can sit with several cushions, is too small for a highchair!!!! ARGHHHHHHHH!!!!

Any words of wisdom?

PDog I know how you feel, all i feel like i do all day is give DD water. A couple of weeks ago all I felt like i was doing was trying to get DD to sleep, it is no fun.
My DD sleeps about 30 mins after her lunch too.

How old are your DC's now?

Hi YellowButterfly sounds like you could do with a hug so sending you a virtual one.

Not much experience with weaning - DD is 21 weeks so not quite there yet.

Are you doing purees or baby led? If purees, could you give things like brocoli, spinach, peaches, plums etc, which are supposed to help constipation. If baby led, could you try things with high water content like sticks of melon and cucumber?

My niece had constipation and my SIL gave diluted prune and orange juice and avoided bananas as they tended to make things worse.

Have you tried a Bumbo My friend used this for feeding her DS as he couldn't sit up at first.

Thanks for the dream feeding tip. Not really sure how to go about it as DD is BF. Also not sure it will make that much difference as she has woken coughing or farting at about 11pm sometimes and I have fed her back to sleep and it has only given me an extra hour - 4am rather 3am.

Hope the weaning goes OK.

Predictably, Ds woke at 10, 2 and 4 again last night !

Soory, yb no advice i'm afraid....Have you tried asking on one of the feeding topics?

Hah, so much for sleeping through last night.
Up 4 times, although one of those I think was because I disturbed him. Twice I managed to get him back off without feeding (dummy/finger sucking)

Yellowbutterfly, you sound in a difficult situation re weaning. No advice, I'm afraid - DS is just 17 weeks. I was going to suggest posting on the weaning board but I see you've already done that. It might be worth asking a question about the medication on the breast & bottle feeding board too - I know there have been discussions about reflux on there.

I checked my baby books to see if they were of any help, but all I could find was that when to wean could be at different times for premmies so to ask your HV.

FWIW, my experience of asking for sleep advice is that paediatrician advice was much more useful than HV or GP - and at least they are 'properly' trained (in theory at least). I'd probably go with the paed. advice on weaning if you can get some.

My brother's returning my weaning books tomorrow that he borrowed, so I'll have a check in them to see if they give any advice.

Well done pdog - I'm sure they sense when we are about to completely lose it and then do something nice to keep us from going completely crazy.

yellowbutterfly - our high chair is actually a booster seat that reclines - like direct.tesco.com/q/R.205-1891.aspx. Don't know if somethign reclining like that might help for feeding? Also, what about using your baby chair if you have one - that's what I used for DD1 in the early days.

Pdog - glad you had a better day today. I've had a day like yours yesterday - I swear I am developing a stoop from rocking and leaning in the cot shushing and patting!

Drdoobs - I'm with you on the random baby doing something nice - Dd slept through last night for the first time in ages but has been a ratbag today...certainly keeping me on my toes. so hopefully you and Angeldog ar ein for a good night tonight...fingers crossed for you both...

Yellowbutterfly - sorry to hear you are feeling so stressed - have a virtual chocolate bar and relaxing glass of wine!

For constipation, I mentioned this earlier in the thread but you could try fennel. You are supposed to steep seeds but being lazy I just used fennel teabags - there's a brand called dr stuart. At night put the tea bag in a sterile bottle, pour over boiling water, close and leave to brew. Give baby a teaspoon of the tea before each feed ? I kept bottle in fridge all day - or if you are breastfeeding drink the tea yourself.

No advice from me on weaning as Dd is 20 weeks so I'm not there yet, but I checked my weaning book and for constipation it suggests what you are doing or others have suggested - lots of water, fruit and veg.

It does say best fruits are figs, dates, apricots, papayas, rhubarb and plums and to avoid too much rice and banana as they tend to bung babies up and suggests fennel tea or chamomile - I presume you could use it in the same way as the fennel teabags.

Thanks guys you are all SOOOOOOO lovely

Just needed to get it off my chest (will probably moan again soon).

PDog when DD wakes up with the farts if i stroke her head she often goes back to sleep. Sometimes she sobs so I have to get her out and give her a big cuddle.

jcee we have some Dr Stuarts fennel tea, I tried it and it was horrible, may try with DD when i'm feeling brave one day!!

Going to try purees and BLW.

If you read back over our threads we are all having improvements you know- so good for us.

Wishing you all a fab weekend xx

Hello sleep-challenged Ladies!

Good luck with the weaning...blimey, that feels like a whole other country away... I'll be interested to see how you get on and pick up some tips for myself for when the time comes...

Well, the weekend away started brilliantly then deteriorated a bit toward the end, although never to nightmare proportions. Ironically, I got my best night sleep so far the night before we left, DD only waking once between me going to bed and having to get up (although twice before that, but it didn't feel like a problem as I wasn't trying to sleep!!)

Anyway, my prediction that a bit of fussiness would likely ensue from the routine disruption has come true but we seem (SEEM...) to be on track to getting it back again. Night sleeping...well, it went down to 2-hourly wake-ups on Saturday night, but wasn't so bad last night. Here's hoping!

Thanks to Littlest for the muslin-draping suggestion - used to great effect. See here for pix!!

I've got my Dad and Gran coming to stay for the next few days. Another routine disruption, although I'll try and keep it to a minimum....

IC, glad the weekend wasn't too bad. Hope tonight is better than Saturday.

Has anyone seen Littlestlass? I'm worried she's stuck in a sleep regression nightmare...

Feeling slightly despondent as DS now needs feeding all the way to sleep at night instead of just to drowsy. Seems like we're going backwards. 5 or 6 attempts at naps today but only 3 successful. Ho hum.

Apparently 5.5 months - 8 months is a good time when babies' development allows for sleep training (trying it around 4-5 months is supposed to be virtually impossible). So I've just got another month to get through before I can get going in earnestness again. Hooray.

Went to see HV today after a terrible week with DS staying awake for 2 hours in the night. Her theory is that I'm not eating enough and he's getting semi skimmed mik at night not full fat. So am starting a new policy of more cake - at least it will be fun !

Seriously, she suggested a sandwich and hot milky drink at bed time, plus eating like a toddler during the day (i.e. snacks between meals) to get the extra 500 calories. I'll let you know if it helps but thought it was worth passing on in case anyone really needed an excuse for more chocolate brioche.

The cranial osteopath told me that DS would feed to sleep at night but not during the day because I'd eaten more. Unfortunately she was wrong - it was simply because he was feeling tired then, and wasn't when I was feeding him during the day.

(Un)fortunately, your diet doesn't affect the fat/calories in your milk: here. But you do need extra calories, so bring on the brioche.

Seriously, I find a bowl of porridge before bedtime helps a lot, if only because when I wake to feed DS I'm too hungry to go back to sleep otherwise.

Hi, can I join?

I started my own thread about my almost 5 month old DD never napping and PDog kindly came and pointed me in this direction.

DrDoobs, I realised after I posted my last thread that it sounded a bit confrontational - I didn't mean that at all! Being up for 2 hours in the night sounds hideous, you poor thing.

Let us know how your toddler eating goes. Sadly I already eat like that. I lost my baby weight carrying DS around in the sling for daytime naps, but since he sleeps in his cot, I've put lots of it back on again.
Apparently the amount of fat available in your milk is directly related to how empty the breast is (the emptier the breast, the fattier the milk) so you could try making sure he really empties each one during afternoon feeds to see if it makes any difference.

GoldenSnitch, welcome! Glad to see that you've had some success with naps today.

Hi all,
Another one new to the thread after Angeldog kindly pointed me in your direction.

My DS is 18 weeks and we're fighting our way through the 4 month sleep regression/developmental/growth spurt - with great joy!

Annoyingly he was a brilliant sleeper as a newborn - was 3 weeks early so quite dopey to start with - and up to 12 weeks we were starting to edge towards sleeping through - only waking once a night and getting progressively later in the night. I made the foolish mistake of getting smug... then the last month has been a slow destruction of previous good habits - no sleeping at night, napping during the day...

Last night was a really good night, as he only woke twice between 11-7. He goes down at 7, then we wake him at 10ish if he's not already awake for a feed - I've tried dreamfeeding, but either he just wakes up or he's so deeply asleep you couldn't get a sheet of paper between his tightly pursed lips, let alone a nipple! Normally we then get a wake-up at 1.30, 3.30 and 5ish. Also not sleeping for more than 45 mins during the day - which drives me mad! (though today I have walked him in to submission and he's now parked in the hall still asleep in the pram - hopefully for long enough for a HOT cup of tea!). At least the walking means I'm fitter than I've ever been!

I'm trying a few things - mainly from the NCSS book - but at night I'm just feeding, as he seems to be hungry (franticly attacking me with open mouth as soon as I get near the cot ), so that seems to get me back to bed faster. I'm trying to feed more during the day, trying to not feed him to sleep at bedtime and put him down almost awake, I've introduced a 'nightime' snuggly toy.

If one more person tells me that I should start weaning as once he's on solids he'll sleep through I'm going to punch them - I'm trying to hold out to 6 months and do BLW. To be fair, he's a biggish lad (nearly 17lbs) so some people have presumed he's older - and the good old granny favourite of 'big babies don't get enough milk'.

I think I'm going to try and ride it out until 6 months then start some more gentle sleep training - but it's good to have some support with people to tell you that babies won't end up 'damaged' if they don't get the hours of sleep that the books recommend (something like 4-6 hours a day at 4 months FFS!).

Anyway, essay and slight rant over - thanks if you're still reading! I'll try and help out with any advice/anything that works.

One thing that has helped, I've had to move from carrycot bit of pram to seat (despite all the dire warnings about not using before 6 months) as DS had grown out of carrycot. He'll now stay asleep in it in restaurants/cafes and when I get home, whereas in carrycot he used to wake up the minute I stopped or got in the front door. Perhaps because he's got more space or is happier sleeping slightly tilted upright (though it's on the flattest setting).

It does get better, but i wish they would tell you when they are planning a 2 hour nap so i could get on with something useful, like going back to bed, cleaning the bathroom or my kitchen windows instead a drinking endless cups of tea and eating chocolate muffins!!

welcome Goldensnitch and flightoffancy

That's ok angeldog. I think there is something to the HV advice tho - running around after 3 DC plus breastfeeding a 15lber probably does need more calories!

Our best night last week was the day of the tesco delivery when i scoffed a whole bag of kettle chips - perhaps not a coincidence

Hi all - been a little absent for a while. Sounds like some LO's are improving and some the same! Feeling ok in myself although dreading putting DD into nursery in 7 weeks due to her catnapping but my PND tablets are helping loads.
DD is still the same, no nap longer than 30 mins although I don't stress about it now, just know what after a 5 min temper tantrum she will drift off and I get 30 mins! I find that a muslin over the face or at least snugged against her face and over head helps enormously to help her drift off - thanks to whoever suggested that. Amazing what I can get done in half and hour now!
Bedtime is getting much better, although she still gets hysterical the minute she is out of the bath through to me zipping up the Grobag, she now calms so much quicker now after I pick her up off the changing station than she used to. I can actually get her to feed really well once I have calmed her down unlike about 4 weeks ago when it would take me at least 20 mins to get her calm enought to feed.
She is sleeping well at night and amazingly goes down first time (most nights) sometimes with a 10 min cry down sometimes not. DH dream feeds and then wakes about 6/7.
Think she has started to teethe aswell as she is red cheeked, drooling, chewing fists and a bit hot. Plus grumpy! Is that a sure sign (there seems to be lumps on her top gums too)?

Well, weve tried really hard today and (I think partially because 3yr old DS was at pre school all morning so the house was quieter) DD has slept for just over an hour during the course of the day.

Longest nap was 40 minutes, then a 20 min one and a few 5-10 minute cap naps. She went down at bedtime easily but then she always has done for that sleep.

Have been trying to feed every 3 hours today but she hasn't always managed to go that long. Will try again tomorrow. Wednesday is always our busy day so it won't be as easy to stick to a routine or make a note of times but I'll try.

Am considering trying a dreamfeed tonight to see if it will help us all get some more sleep. We've never done them before and she generally wakes around midnight and again at 5am after a 7pm bedtime feed. I'm wondering if a 10pm feed would bring us down to just one feed overnight?

fhutts, DD screams from the second she is lifted out of the bath until we start feeding too! She loves the bath and hates getting out.

Can I join in too? DD is 15 weeks and was never a great sleeper - she would wake every hour and a half during the night until about 8 weeks - but had been going for at least three hour stretches for two or three weeks, until a horrible regression a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know if it's teething, growth spurt or development, but I can't see much evidence of either

She naps OK during the day, as long as I'm rocking her or she's in a sling, but nights are horrible. The only way I get any sleep at all is by cosleeping.

I can't wait to start sleep training in earnest at about 6 months, am just trying to survive until then!

After yesterdays napping improvement, we had an awful night's sleep

DD woke at 10pm, 11.30pm, 2am and 6.30am. She would usually go to bed at 7pm and sleep until around midnight then feed again at about 5am. Night's have always been much better than days

Going to give napping another try today but if we end up with another rubbish nights sleep tonight, I feel like just giving up. I'm wondering if she didn't sleep as deeply last night because she wasn't so tired. But she should be napping at her age. It's bad for her development not to nap!! I don't know what to do!

We've got a really busy day today so she would usually sleep more as she'll be in the car/pushchair a lot. I'm just going to struggle coping myself.

Hi Goldensnitch and welcome - sounds like you had an awful night. It really feels like 1 step forward and then 1 step back sometimes doesn't it?

Did you try the dreamfeed? I've found when my DD naps during the day she's not uncontrollably screamy by 6pm and seems to be better at night, which is why I'm persevering although she is resisting naps at the moment and it's driving me crazy...

In the spirit of choose your battles, I'd say direct your energies to getting through today as it sounds as though you have a busy day ahead and DD will nap whilst you are out and about then see how you feel tomorrow.

In the meantime have a virtual cappuchino with an extra espresso shot and chocolate brioche from me