'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

IC, miniWilloughby is the same as your LO - she is so disinterested in food during the day, yet guzzles at night. I've been swaddling for the last two nights, which has had surprisingly good results. I never managed to swaddle before as she hates it, but I've discovered that if I swaddle and feed immediately, she falls asleep easier and stays asleep longer. She has done her first ever 5 hour stretch, which was amazing!

I find that DD needs a good 2 hour gap between her last nap and going down at night. I'm not too fussed about the actual time - tonight she was down at 6pm, last night it took until about 8.30 to get her down - but we have a routine, so she knows this is 'big sleep' time. I've never managed to get her to nap unless in pram/sling/my arms, so that's what I do during the day. As long as she's sleeping I'll do anything!

Does anyone have any tips on how to get them to sleep by themselves? At the moment I have to feed/rock to sleep, and if I don't wait until she's in a deeper phase, she'll wake as soon as I put her down. I'd love to be able to do book, bath, feed, swaddle, put her down and have her fall asleep - is that wishful thinking?

Yup WilloughbyWallaby I reckon that it is wishful thinking-certainly my DD has never fallen asleep in her cot ever-always have put her in asleep.
Maybe they are just too young and eventually they will get it? Or is that wishful thinking?

I think they are too young. DD has gone down awake but only when she has napped properly during the day. She has been much more alert after her nap so the last feed has been quicker and she has been more alert so I could read her a story and then put her down - only happened twice though.

Usually she is practically in a milk induced coma when she goes down for the night .

I was starting to get hopeful as she has slept from 8pm until 4/5am for 3 nights in a row , until last night when she was up 3 times and decided 5.30am was a good time to be up for the day. She is now knackered and shouting in her cot (just put her down for a nap). My FIL is staying at the moment though - anyone else find having guests makes their DC more unsettled?

floppops I wouldn't worry too much about bad habits at this stage (she says hopefully). I try and get DD to take at least one nap in her cot, usually the first one, but she has most of her naps in the car or pram . Because she is such a night mare if she doesn't nap I am not too fussed where she sleeps, as long as she does. In an ideal world, it would be great if she napped in her cot as then I could get stuff done but at the moment the housework is bottom of my to-do-list

Morning everyone.

floppops, WilloughbyWallaby: The books I've read on baby sleep (I'm on the eighth so far ) and the people I've spoken to suggest that while some babies learn how to go to sleep on their own just like that, many (most?) need teaching how to do so. The age at which they are capable of learning seems to vary wildly from baby to baby - some get it at a few weeks old, some could be well into toddlerhood before they manage it.

I know I said before I'd post something about this, so I'm really going to get down to trying to summarise the different books' suggestions about how to try to teach your babies to get to sleep by themselves. It'll probably take me at least a week, though, as there are different methods since different babies respond to different approaches.

There are also good and bad ages at which to try to teach babies to get to sleep, and around 4 months is a bad time so if that's you, don't worry for now! In general, the better rested the baby, the easier it will be for them to learn how to go to sleep - so it's better to have 'bad' habits of getting them to sleep than the 'awful' habit of not sleeping. Watch this thread for more detail at some point.

I will have to try to moderate my sleep obsession, though. DH has suggested a 'three strikes & you're out' rule - if I talk about baby sleep more than 3 times a day, I (and DS) will be in the shed! It's not quite come to that yet...

PDog, I've not found that with guests staying (mainly because we don't have many), but I do find it's more difficult for naps when people are over, and especially difficult getting DS to nap if we're visiting someone else, even if we're only there for lunch.

I'm feeling cheerful - DS was only up twice last night (3.30 and 5.55am ): very pleasant after several nights of 3-4 awakenings.

Morning all.

Had a very strange weekend. I think weaning is really throwing DD of course with her naps.

She has been sleeping terribly in the morning and well in the afternoons, I think probably a bit too well as at bedtimes it has taken her an hour to settle herself, either that or carrots make her hyperactive .

Got a busy week ahead so planning a chill out day today.

Gone down perfectly this morning though, very strange creatures babies .

Morning all.

Had a very strange weekend. I think weaning is really throwing DD of course with her naps.

She has been sleeping terribly in the morning and well in the afternoons, I think probably a bit too well as at bedtimes it has taken her an hour to settle herself, either that or carrots make her hyperactive .

Got a busy week ahead so planning a chill out day today.

Gone down perfectly this morning though, very strange creatures babies .

Thanks angeldog but for once i believe the HV. There's no way i was eating anything like 500 calories extra and since i've been making an effort he has slept much better - although still early waking . perhaps i should do what friends of mine have done and take food to bed with me for a 3am snack!

welcome to all the newbies. FWIW i'm weaning DS at 5 months (as I did with DD1 & 2) but in my case because i need to fit the time consuming early part in between half term and the summer holidays.

floppops my DS has all his naps in his pram. If you are worried about rocking them to sleep you can always gradualy cut back on the rocking - stop walking when your DC is almost asleep and let her do the last bit on her own, and gradually build up to no rocking/pushing at all.

Hi WW - apparently it's a fairly classic feeding pattern at this age - "the age of distraction"!

On the plus side, DD is becoming less and less dependent on her dummy both for naps and overnight sleep. On the minus side, I suspect she's replacing the dummy with my breast for settling, as she was up every 2 hours for a quick feed then back down again last night. The good part is that she mostly goes straight back to sleep without me having to mess about replacing/removing the dummy. The bad part is that the frequency of wake-ups is a regressive step and plays hell with my own sleep (it usually takes me a good half hour to get back to sleep myself after each one).

Yes, I've started swaddling her in the last couple of weeks and it does help to some degree as every time I see if she'll go off without the swaddling, her flailing arms keep her awake. On the other hand, it's possible she's a little hot (although I am using a muslin swaddling sheet) and the awakenings may be related to thirst as much as needing to be resettled. After all, she doesn't wake up after every sleep cycle, it seems to be after every two or three. She's only been wearing a vest under the swaddle, but tonight I think I'll remove that too and see if it makes any difference.

AngelDog I reckon you'll be able to write your own book on the subject after this!!

Thoughts/advice on babies who feed more at night than in the day etc... here

Thanks Inmaculada, I'll try a couple of those suggestions tomorrow. This morning DD ate loads, but this afternoon, far less interested.

I've taken her out for a really long walk this afternoon, in the hope that lots of fresh air will help her sleep better tonight. It's good for me to get out of the house, too, but I suppose I'll have to wait and see whether it's had any impact tonight. We do get out every day, but today was an extra-long hike down the river path, in her front-facing buggy! I feel like I've got a big girl now!

Anyway, hope you all have good nights tonight - IC, DD has just stopped doing the two-hourly waking once more, and it was such a relief. Every time it makes me feel like such a zombie, so I totally feel your pain

Thanks WW - and the same to everyone else... here's to sweet sleep...

DD had her first tiny bit of food yesterday and sleep was all messed up again last night. Instead of her usual midnight and 5am feeds, she woke at 10.45pm, 4am and 5am, 6am and then slept until 8.30! The long gap in the middle was nice but I feel like I've been up since 4am as I never really got back to sleep.

She's having a nap now. 30 mins and counting so far...

I've managed to get her to have about an hour a day. Not great but better than nothing. She was 5 months yesterday.

Hope everyone else got a good nights sleep

SLIGHTLY better night - first two stretches (after a brief awakening after 45mins...) were closer to 3 hours than 2, so that's an improvement. Reading the various pages linked by AngelDog in the sleep regression thread, I realised DD is conforming to sleep behaviour linked to the 12 week developmental spurt (which is her corrected age). It was kind of reassuring to know there's not much I can do about it and also to know that it should (hopefully) only last a few weeks (and then we hit the 4 month regression, oh joy!)

T'was also reassuring to read Moxie's take on naps - she reckons babies are hardwired to take 20 or 45 minute naps and there ain't much you can do to lengthen them until their sleeping patterns start to settle down a bit at 5.5months or so... Not much fun if you've got a grumpy, overtired baby, but at least you can't blame yourself about it.

At the moment we're having late-morning fuss time (between the 1st and 2nd nap of the day) then she's usually okay until the night nappy goes on just before bed-time. Luckily, the 5S's are still managing to deal with both. I dread the time when they stop being effective...

Inmaculada, I must get myself to the sleep regression thread, I reckon. Do we ever get a period of time that isn't linked to bad sleep?

I must be in the midst of 4 month regression - am walking around in a daze after a few nights of almost hourly waking. Had a right go at DH this morning, along the 'I can't take much more of this, kill me now' vein. Poor man.

DD was 4 months yesterday, and in celebration we tried her on her first bit of solids, not sure if I should wait for her sleep to get better before I continue, or wean in earnest now, so that I get the bad weaning sleep at the same time as the 4 month sleep regression, in the hope that she'll come out of them together(ish). But I suppose that's wishful thinking, too?!

Well, last night was a total bummer. DD napped badly yesterday and was so overtired by bedtime, the 5S technique wouldn't cut it (ARRGGH!), I was almost at my wits end to stop the screaming, when unexpectedly she was distracted by the mobile DH made her and was instantly silent. I was then able to get a feed down her and then get her off to sleep (then she woke up 40 mins later...and 1.5 hours after that etc...)

As well as frequent awakenings, it was very difficult to resettle her at times, including a screaming fit at one point (usually she just whimpers and fidgets) and she needed 3 overnight nappy changes too.... (usually I leave it on all night unless she poos).

Ugh, if this IS the 12 week thingy, I just hope we get through it soon. Great timing just before we fly back to the UK for this wedding tomorrow...

Hah, good question WW...depends on the baby, I guess! Depressingly, some are awful sleepers throughout (here's hoping none of ours are in that category)

Yes, I've been all teary today - just through bad sleep. DH is being lovely, but it's interfering with his kip too (although not as much, luckily. Really don't want both of us to be over-emotional, cranky or zombified the whole time).

Thistoowillpassthistoowillpassthistoowillpass...

I found the four month thing really tough. I think they can have a growth spurt and a sleep regression around the same time - DD certainly did. Not only did she wake up every 2 hours for food, she had completely forgotten how to get to sleep and bedtimes became a nightmare with massive screaming fits. It does pass though.

DD is coming up to 5.5 months so am hoping she will start to nap longer. Not holding my breath though. Had her first swimming lesson yesterday so thought she would be tired but no - she was up 4 times last night with a lot of crying. She couldn't seem to settle herself.

Seem to remember reading somewhere that they go through another developmental stage soon after the 4 month one, which can result in another sleep regression. That is why people talk about the 4 month one more often, because it seems to go on longer.

Maybe this is the start of the next regression for us or maybe just teeth or more growing - who knows?

Must dash - DD is calling (only 30 min nap).

Good luck PDog!

I'm kind of assuming this is the 12 week spurt as I'm correcting for DD's prematurity (she's actually just hit 16 weeks) - but it's possible the 4 month thing is also getting underway, it's hard to tell because of aforementioned prematurity.

Anyway, another night has begun...

This time I didn't wait until "bedtime" (probably my mistake yesterday as she was overtired by 1900...) but started the routine early - about an hour after the end of her previous nap (I've been more proactive about trying to make sure she takes them. Still can't manage more than 45 mins at a time, though...). She was much easier to put down as a result and didn't cry much at all (thankfully). She woke up after an hour, but application of dummy, then removed while stroking her forehead seems (SEEMS...) to have dealt with that for the moment. Fingers crossed for a better night. I want to be reasonably well-rested so I can cope with the stress of tomorrow's flight.

Wish me luck, Everyone!

I am blowing sleepy dust at all your LOs...(makes a change from volcanic ash, anyway.)

Hi all...
Well, just when I was thinking it was getting better we're back to three times a night (and I'm counting night from when I go to bed). So, the last couple of nights have been bed at 7pm, feed at 10, 1, 3 and 5. Sigh.
I didn't even say out loud that it might be getting better, I only thought it very very quietly.
To be fair, at the weekend when it mattered he was very good - Thurs when DH was out I went to bed early and he didn't wake until midnight. Then Friday when I was out DH woke him to feed at 11, then he only woke twice in the night at 2.30 and 5 (which I count as very manageable). Then Saturday I managed my first ever proper dreamfeed (he'll normally either wake up before it's time, or be so fast asleep that it's impossible) and he only woke twice. And I got smug. Dammit!
I agree with some of the others - I'm starting to get obsessed with baby sleep. Can see people glazing over when I start to detail the night's schedule of wake-ups! Have started to count down to 6 months as some kind of magic point where I can a) see if people are right that solids will help b) see if people are right that you can start sleep training at 6 months. Sure I'll be disappointed, but it helps to have something to look forward to!

Going backwards here too. I thought we'd gotten back to our normal routine but DD was up an extra couple of times last night and has been up again since bedtime tonight and is currently singing in her crib!!

I'm wondering if maybe the crib is too small now and she's banging her hands on the sides. Maybe it's time to think about moving her to the cotbed in her own room?

I really wanted to leave her at the end of my bed till she slept through though to save me having to stuble across the landing 2 or 3 times every night.

Good luck IC and thanks for the sleepy dust!

Ooh FoF thinking is dangerous don't you know? . Everytime the thought that DD might finally be settling down even vaguely enters my head she decides to prove me wrong - I dread to think what would happen if I actually spoke the words

Hello everyone

Not been round much we had internet problems. Sorry to hear no-one is getting much sleep at the moment - we too have had a few really random nights over the last week with 3 or 4 wakings up but it's usually just to put the dummy back in, which I can just about cope with.

But we have made progress with napping as I can now put DD down awake and most of the time she will settle herself to sleep.

DD will be 5 months old this weekend and we've seen a big development change this week - she is using her hands differently and rolling over - so I don't know if it's that and we are over the 4 month thing, anything else I've done or just more randomness.

I'm still throwing a blanket over her before a nap and after reading the moxie blog - thanks for the link Angeldog - I realised DD likes to have a bit of a moan before sleep to unwind and my rocking and shushing weren't making any difference, So I now don't bother and just put her down, chuck the blanket on her and let her have her moan. If it goes into full on crying I go to her but usually she plays with the blanket and fusses a bit then the moans get steadily quieter and she drops off. Still only napping for 45 minutes at a time but it feels like I've made a huge leap forward and my back is so much better for it!

PDog - I'm so with you on the thinking thing - it's like DD can read my mind and wants to prove me wrong and I'm sure now I've written this down I'm in a for a hellish day and night...

Hello everyone.

I'm glad to hear that some of you are having progess with naps. Things are definitely getting better here. We seem to be back to 1 or 2 night wakings, not the 3 or 4 of what I think was the 4 month sleep regression.

DS has started spontaneously taking longer naps during the day - he probably has at least one nap longer than 45 mins at least every other day. It causes its own problems, though, as the time gap between the last nap and bedtime can now end up far too long, so we have an early evening meltdown. He was asleep by 18.00 today so hopefully that will help.

I have also managed to stop feeding him to sleep and rock him instead. I swaddle him, lay him across my lap as if he's feeding and rock fast in our rocking chair. There was quite a lot of protest crying at first, but he's getting the hang of it much better and now grizzles rather than yells. As long as I've spotted his sleepy signs at the right time, he goes off relatively quickly.

He's also getting more predictable by the clock - I know now that if he wakes at 7am, his first nap needs to start at 9am, irrespective of whether I've seen any sleepy signs.

He will be 5 months next week.

IC, hope the trip isn't too stressful.

Dr Doobs, glad things have improved. Life with more than one DC sounds like far too much of an organisational challenge for me!

Bad week in the PDog house. DD been up 3 to 4 times every night - last night it was 5.

Naps are still a nightmare. She was better yesterday - had quite a long nap in her pram over lunch but today has been terrible. She wouldn't go down for a morning nap, which is usually a given, then woke earlier than she wanted to from her lunchtime nap.

Just been a nightmare since then - cried when I tried to feed her so I put her down in her cot. She ended up screaming and just wouldn't calm down. DH took her for a drive and then spent 30 mins rocking her to get to sleep properly.

Am very and very tired

Ooh, PDog, poor you. Hope things improve soon.

Well, our trip to the UK and back went really well - beyond my best hopes, actually. I got her dozing in the sling before we boarded each time, fed her on the way up then swaddled and rocked and shushed her (with the dummy) to get her off to sleep. Maximum ten minutes fussing, she slept the rest of the way, bless her. It was tough persuading her to feed on the way down because she was so sleepy, but she sucked a bit at the critical moments and I had also given her a bit of paracetamol before each flight which probably helped too.

While in the UK, someone lent us a pram which handily fitted our baby bed perfectly. It meant she could nap while we were doing wedding socialising without either of us missing out on too much. On one night, I put her to bed in the pram, then we carried it down stairs and parked it in the corner of a room where 40 people were having a meal. She slept through the lot and in fact managed a five-hour stretch, which equals her PB.

She seems okay so far now we're back. Slept the same as usual last night and took her naps.

My only worry now is that I've caught a streaming cold and although I'm going to try hard not to give it to her, I fear it may be difficult to avoid.

Anyway, at least the trip went well, which was a huge relief.

Sleepy dust to all!