'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Oh where to start!!!

My DD is 20 weeks (14 weeks corrected), so i'm super confused on how much sleep she needs. She has body of 14 week old but mind of 20 week old !!!!!!

She sleeps wonderfully at night but daytime is a different matter, Cat naps, fights sleep and is clearly overtired, yawn, yawn, yawn all day.
She seems to get so close to sleep then bang she is awake again!!

Farts also wake her. very annoying when you have battled to get her to sleep.

Bed time routine is lovely though, its just she is sometimes too tired to enjoy it, or i feel i have to rush it as she is so tired.

Also she won't sleep in car or pushchair.

We are thinking of putting her in her cot this weekend for the first time (I know 20 weeks and still in moses basket but is only 10 lb) Any tips greatly received. But nervous about it.

Forgot to add a tip.

For daytime naps, i'm at a loss, will be very interested on peoples tips. I just try to look for the signs such as yawns, rubbing eyes, getting grumpy. I have visions of running up and down stairs once she is in her cot.

At bedtime we feed, sit up for a bit as has reflux, then we go to the spa.
She gets very excited about it. We have a bath, which she now loves but previously hated. Then we spend ages getting dry and dressed, which she loves. Then we cuddle and listen to her baby mozart CD. When she starts to get sleepy I put her in her basket and she settles herself.

I think the CD really helps relax her and she loves the quiet one on one time getting dressed after her bath.

Welcome, yellowbutterfly!

I had to laugh at your DD having the mind of a 20 week old but body of a 14 week old! I'm sure the amount of sleep that DS ideally needs is closer to an average newborn than a 13 week old.

That 'close to sleep but bang, awake again' describes DS exactly - day and night.

With the move to the cot, you could try putting the Moses basket into the cot at first so she gets used to it. Will the cot be in your room or in a room of her own? If her own, you could stay in there until she falls asleep.

We had a measure of success - over the last 2 days DS has actually got drowsy during the day and I've managed to get him to sleep a few times without using the sling. Being able to put him down and/or get him to stay asleep has not been so successful, though.

And our nights seem to have gone backwards - he's been waking up 3 times a night for the last week, (used to be only twice), but last night was 4 times. For one of those it took an hour to settle him after the feed, and three of his sleeps only lasted 45 minutes .

my 12 week old DS is anti-day time sleep too(although has just dozed off on my lap while I'm typing!)

Were planning on moving into cot any day now, which will be in his own room (as not enough room in our bedroom for a cot aswell!). HV wasn't too impressed he will be in another room (SIDS risk), but will have doors open and have one of those breathing monitors (is the best I can do!). Did anyone else feel sad about baby not being with them at night? it will be so weird, I've found it comforting having him there! but its got to be done at some point!!

My tip would be to try not to stress about sleep. I'm sure they sense your vibes, and who can sleep when stressed! as demonstrated at begining of this post, I've been typing on laptop, just holding baby and hes drifted off! (doesn't always work like this I assure you - ha if only!!!!)

Hello!

As AngelDog knows, I am also struggling with a nightmare sleeper.

DD is 13 weeks old and has struggled to get to sleep from 2 weeks (the first 2 weeks she was jaundice and we had a tough time keeping her awake long enough to feed her - how I regret moaning about that now!).

She constantly fights sleep for both naps and night time sleep, screaming if we put her in the cot. Originally she went to sleep in the sling no problem at all and so myself and DP wore her for about 2 months! Then she started getting more aware of her surroundings and now we generally have to cover her with a muslin to get her to sleep in the sling. Same thing applies to the pram - works only if she can't see out. And even though we can get her to sleep these ways, it's then impossible to get her out of the sling/pram into the cot without waking her up. Cue more screaming.

Putting her in the cot will result in screaming even if I sit with her stroking her head or tummy. We've tried shushing, patting, rocking, singing, talking, stroking, crying (in my case - it doesn't work). Eventually (week 11) I gave up and started doing controlled crying just because my presence seemed to make her worse. Since then there is generally slightly less crying, but still enough to regularly drive me to tears.

I don't really have any word of wisdom, it's just nice to know I'm not the only one!!

Oh, just thought I do have one word of wisdom for daytime naps, get a musical mobile (battery not wind up). DD seems to like it and it's the one thing the health visitor told us to do that actually appeared to help at all. Generally my trips to the HV leave me wanting to kill someone, but she was right about that.

Hi, my dd is 12 weeks old and the past four nights have been terrible. She useto go down lovely awake and will drift off to sleep on her own in a few minutes, usually she'll wake for a feed about 2 hours later and have 5oz then go straight back down repeating this again in 5 hours and so on (which was great).

The problem started four nights ago after about 12am when dd had had her feed she went down back to sleep as usual but then proceded to wake every hour, not to be fed but just to be made comfortable again. I thiught it was just a bad night but clearly not so every night i've been trying different things which might help but nothing so far.

Angeldog - Haveyou tried swaddling?. This really helped my dd when i was having problems with her sleeping in the day.

xx

Hi, Hope you don't mind if I join ???
I have a 15 week old dd who used to only feed once in a night after her 10.00pm feed...not any longer! The past few weeks I have been getting up 4 times after the 10.00pm feed, it's all gone to pot!
She is demand exclusively BF and a serial catnapper...she has around three 40 min naps in the day which she has no problem going down for but I am sure she would be more refreshed if she had one longer sleep at lunchtime.
She goes down not too badly at about 6.30pm, sometimes straight down, sometimes with between 5-10 mins cry-down... it is just the frequecy of the night wakings that I am finding hard to cope with right now... sometimes I can't even string a sentence together coherently!

At least you got a while with just one night feed (I would kill for that!!). Mind you, can't complain too much as DD only woke twice for food last night with the first waking being an hour of sucking then nodding off. Shame that the second was an hour of sucking, 40 minutes of moany crying, and then another 30 minutes of sucking when we gave up trying to get her to sleep any other way!

But at least the cronic constaption appears to have gone. I never thought I'd be so happy to see baby poo.

Lolalotta I generally have the same nap problems - 30 to 40 mins is normal for her, though recently she's been that shattered from the waking every hour during the night that she's been going for longer. If you discover the secret to consistently longer napping let me know please

meandmaisie I used to swaddle and it seemed to work ok for a while, but now DD hates it. When she managed to somehow always get herself out of one of those special swaddling blankets, we gave up! I'm just looking forward to 6 months when the moro reflex is supposed to have pretty much gone.

Does anyone else find it horribly depressing when you realise that there's a fair chance this will carry on for another 3 months at least? I'll be a zombie by then.

Hello I've come to join as I have a 16wo DD who hates daytime sleep.

She will sleep but only in her pram, sling or the car (and not everytime and often takes a long time to go off). A nap lasts a max of 45 mins but is often only 20-30 minutes and is often preceeded by uncontrollable crying.

No tips on daytime naps - I usually end up going out (DD will wake as soon as I return and usually need feeding, then the whole process starts again).

She sleeps really well at night (once she is asleep) but will scream as soon as I put her in the crib. After 3 nights of this I now have a technique that works. I basically hold her down in the crib, trying to manouvere myself so she can't move her arms or legs. I also hold her head to the side and stroke her face with my thumb. This sounds cruel but the last 2 nights she has only screamed for 5 mins and then gone to sleep, then I have gradually removed myself. After her night feed, she settles herself but just can't seem to do it during the day or when I put her down for the night.

I know a lot of people would fervently disagree, but the cruellest thing to me seems to be not helping your child get enough sleep.

I've said before that my DD is like another baby when she is well rested (as she was today) and it's horrible to see her when she's not had enough kip. I really wish the shush patting worked with her but it doesn't (we spent 11 weeks trying all through the night) so I've resorted to controlled crying. Never really wanted to, but it seems to be the best way of "helping" her sleep. Still does make me feel slightly evil but I balance it by making such a big fuss of her when she is awake that I'm sure no harm will come. Plus, my mum left me to cry and I'm a relatively well adjusted person with a degree and responsible job (well semi-responsible) so it doesn't appear to have hurt me.

I'm amazed you have enough arms to do what you describe though!

DS is 12 weeks old and has the same problem - he will not nap during the day at all unless he is in my arms cuddled on the sofa which is lovely but not always practical.

He sleeps well at night - so far!!! I give him feeds more regulaly in the afternoon and evening .I give him a massage and then put his baby sleep CD on . I do the same thing every night so I am dreading ever going away with him!!!!

The day time is a different story though it would be great for him to sleep for more than 30 mins in one go!! I don't want to use his night time sleep cues as I don't want him to get confused!!

DD is in her cot .

First night last night. We didn't put moses basket in first, couldn't see what difference it would make, just made sure all her "friends" were in exactly the same position in the cot.
She looks so comfy . Did manage to kick all her covers off in the night, so i woke at 3 in a panic and quickly covered her up ?grow bag?

Trying to tackle the short nap issue now .

Littlelass - I've tried controlled crying too without any success. My DD just gets more and more agitated to the point that she is screaming the house down. I have left her for an hour and a half (in tears myself) but she just gets progressively worse.

She fights the sleep so much she waves her arms around, moves her head from side to side and basically thrashes around so that if she does drop off she wakes herself up!! So pinning her down is the only thing that works for us.

Not daytime though - tried this morning and she did go to sleep in her crib but only for 20 minutes. Not worth the effort really.

Welcome, houmousandcarrotsandwich and Littlestlass (we meet again!) and also meandmaisie, lolalotta, PDog, newmummy2lucas. Littlestlass, it sounds like you're having a horrible time I'm glad the constipation has cleared up. I know what you mean about it being cruel not to get your DC to sleep. While I'm not a fan of CC, I can entirely see why you're at that stage. When you see the difference in your baby (and your own ability to cope) when they're well rested, you do feel that you have to do anything you can in order to give them the sleep that they need.

I too have been very depressed at the thought that it could continue for another 3 months, but LOs do change.

yellowbutterfly - hooray! I think a sleeping bag is definitely the way ahead for a restless baby.

We have had progress with daytime naps. Twice yesterday & once now I've been able to get DS off without the sling. I swaddle him, lie him across my lap in a cradled feeding position on his side, with his nose into my elbow. I then put a muslin over my shoulder and down over his head so he can't see anything. I give him a dummy (he's not goo at keeping it in, but my arm stops it falling out) - but I take it out before he's asleep. I then rock the chair a bit, pat his bottom and play loud white noise. He actually gets drowsy and goes to sleep!!

meandmaisie, thanks for the swaddling suggestion as I wouldn't have thought to try it again if you'd not suggested it. We used to do it but stopped when DS started to suck his fists. It does make the above procedure easier, though.

Now the next step is to put him down once he's asleep. Then the plan is then to try to gradually work my way up to putting him his cot before he's fully asleep and do some of the rocking etc there. Hopefully I can introduce some nap time cues which may help. I think it will be a long time before I can just put him down an get him to go to sleep, though. It's a good job I don't have any other children to deal with!

Hmm, some rogue asterisks in my post above.

Littlestlass, I tried the shush pat thing in the cot too with no success at all: I think DS needs to be held/rocked for it to work. However, I did have some success the other night with getting him sleepy in my arms and then cradling him in just the same way but in the carry cot and finishing it off there. I'm planning to work on a No-Cry Sleep Soution type gradual withdrawal method, but I've no idea whether it'll work.

I had tried the whole rocking / patting / dummy etc before but with no success. I do think it's worth trying different methods again even if they've failed before, because babies do change. DS wasn't particularly helped by a dummy before (we'd tried him with one since 4 weeks old) but now it makes a huge difference to whether or not he gets drowsy.

We have a musical mobie on a swing which some friends lent us. DS is comletely mesmerised by it, but there's no chance of it making him sleep. We put him in the swing when he gets overtired but unable to sleep - he stares like a zombie until he starts crying, which is the point at which to get the sling out. We tried him in it with a sheet over the top the other day to see if that helped, but he just sat there for about 45 minutes, then grizzled his way up to crying.

Update: I have just put DS fast asleep in his carry cot here in the living room - first time in at least 5 weeks! We're a long way off teaching him to sleep by himself, but at least I can now spend a few minutes doing the jobs around the house that you can't do whilst wearing a baby in a sling!

Well done AngelDog - sounds like you are making progress.

If anything, my DD seems to have got progressive worse since about 12 weeks. The only thing that seems to work now is going out. She will sleep in the pram but needs quite a long walk before she eventually gives in. She is just too worried that she might be missing out on something!!

PDog, I know that Littlestlass has had some success with the pram by covering it with a muslin so her DD couldn't see out. I'm going to give that a go later this week. Worth a try? I think they do find it harder to get to sleep as they become more alert and interested in the world.

OOOH so interested in the muslin thing. DD having hand eating issues. They have been red raw, so in desperation we have been putting a muslin over her hands and she has been covering her face with it and falling asleep!!!!, Is this the beginning of a "blankie"

Really pleased about the cot but really sad and desperate about the nap problems, bedtime now becoming an issue too (DH thought he would look after DD on saturday while I did a bit of cleaning, bed time was a total disaster with a 2hr sobbing episode on DD's part- he later confessed he thought overtired would be good, as he thought she would "crash"

Really .
Feeling really sorry for myself. With DD's prematurity i've probably got 6 weeks extra S**t than you guys (saying it as feeling really down and hopefully may make you guys feel a little better about it all .

Just a quick update as I thought you'd all like a bit of hope (I certainly did!).

Just put DD in the cot for a morning nap. She cried a little when I got her into the sleeping bag as I think she knows it means sleep time. I then did my normal "it's sleepy time DD, it's time to go to sleep" repeated again and again, turned on the mobile and put her in the cot and walked out.

Anyway after 5 minutes of talking to the mobile (which is her current favourite game) it all went quiet so I went for a peek. She was lying there eyes shut and twitching a bit. Watched her for 5 minutes more, no crying, so I went to clean the bathroom (I'm so rock and roll!).

She's been asleep 30 minutes and no crying while in the cot! This has never happened during the day - at night it only happens if I feed her to sleep. Even if we're back to screaming this afternoon, I'm so happy I could scream!

Oh and the muslin thing does work for me, though you can buy one of these things here if it needs to be darker. No idea if they're any good though!

By the way yellowbutterfly my DD is also sucking the muslins now! Though she seems to have decided everything must now go in the mouth as she's started grabbing mine and DPs fingers and trying to suck them!!

Well done Littlestlass!

DD also managed a nap in her cot this morning but only for 30 mins. She can easily escape from a swaddle so I tucked her blanket in underneath her with her arms inside.

She also talked to her mobile for awhile but all was quiet and when I went to check she was asleep! She'd managed to get one arm out though.

She might have slept for longer but next door are having work done and it sounded like the drilling was coming through the wall

Going for a walk after lunch - I pull the hood of the pram right over so she can't see anything but it still takes a good 20 minutes before she goes off. At least I am getting some exercise

hello all!!

i have a soon to be 3 month old dd who has recently decided that night-time sleep is not something she really wants to do anymore (see my thread sleeping is for wimps). she goes to sleep great after our bathtime, quiet time and feed routine. lasts at most 4 hours but after that can be up every hour, wanting feeding or with wind or with what i think is early teething (a lot of hand chewing and chomping on my finger).

day time she will nap -tho sometimes needs a lot of help- but rarely for longer than 45 mins/1hr.

she is bf but i am going to try and give her formula in an 23.00 feed tonight to see if that helps her go longer. anyone else try this? my bro does it and his LO (same age) sleeps through.

once the nursery is finished she is moving straight in.....

Update - DD went to bed without crying

Seems my 'pin down technique' has worked for us in less than a week. She was still awake when I left the room too.

Am full of determination now so am going to start working on daytime naps in earnest tomorrow - will let you know how it goes.

annabeau IME FF or BF makes no difference to sleep. My friend's LO is FF and still wakes 3 times in the night for feeds.

I did give my DD a bottle before bed for a couple of months but she doesn't have it any more. It got her to bed earlier (she was cluster feeding) but didn't cut down the nightfeeding. About 3/4 weeks ago (she is 16 weeks now) she started showing less and less interest in it so I started putting her to bed without it.

I am extremely lucky that she only wakes once in the night for feeding - although she tends to stock up by feeding every 2 hours during the day and for an hour and a half before bed.

Now I know she can go through, if she does wake up unexpectedly I tend to leave her unless she is crying/getting very agitated. She will often go back to sleep without any intervention from me, although she is very noisy so it doesn't really help my sleep.

Hello everyone

I think I qualify to join in too, with my non-daytime-sleeping little monkey! Like everyone here, she does not sleep more than 30 mins during the day, however I can get her into the cot during the morning but as yet not suceeded for the afternoon and there is no such thing as a long lunchtime nap for my LO unless we are out in the pram over rough terraine! Ssh/pat doesn't help after she has had the 30 mins in her cot
She is so hard to settle at bedtime that she rarely takes more than 3oz as she is just so desperately overtired and begging for sleep. Once she is down however, she is very good and usually only wakes once after her dreamfeed, but considering she has practically no sleep during the day it is hardly surprising!
I have tried as others suggest to stop her bath (overstimulating?) and to try to bed her earlier but if I put her to bed any earlier she'll be going at 4pm for the night! I dread to think what time she would then wake for the day! I cannot seem to get anything to work at bedtime which is a direct knock on from her not sleeing well during the day. We have tried putting her to bed at 5.30pm, stopping her bath, not changing her into bedtime clothes, changing her downstairs, changing upstairs, soft music, no music, low light, no light, swaddle, grobag the lot - she still cries hysterically at the bedtime routine. It is very distressing all round.
I am also worried because I have to go back to work in July when she will be 6mo and I am petrified of what will happen at Nursery. What if she still cannot day-time sleep for more tha 30 mins or get off unaided, will they just leave her to cry, will they think she is a whinger, a naughty baby? The thought that someone would think unkind things about my baby is devestating.
Well sorry for the moan, and the lack of advice for others. Just feeling a bit sorry for myself (and my overtired DD).

fhutts we put DD down between 5 and 6 and then we wake her at 11pm for a feed (seriously) She is then back to sleep by midnight and awake again between 5 and 6 am (seriously). We have tried waking her for a feed at 7pm but she won't take it.... too tired and grumpy.

try feeding before bath, if you are breast feeding you can always feed again afterwards . Its a good habit. try keeping it short. xx