'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Hi everyone

Well after feeling so positive last week, it's all gone a bit downhill here

Pdog - sorry to hear you are having a bad time of it, but it's exactly the same here...so I think it might be the 4 month sleep regression/growth spurt...

Naps have suddenly become a total battle and, as you say it's like going backwards and as though everything I've taught DD has gone...she'll get drowsy in my arms but everytime I try to lay her down she'll kick off and take an eternity to calm down again even though she is obviously exhausted and can barely keep her eyes open...

She has now also started waking at 6am - previously she woke up at 7.15 so only an hour or so earlier but it's killing me, especially as she suddenly can't settle herself and so last night she was up at 2.15 and would not settle at all...it was almost 4 when she eventually drifted off...I am shattered today...

AngelDog - sounds positive...I'll have ot look at the links about the 4 months rgression thing - do your books suggest doing anything? or is it case of repeating it's just a phase and having more caffeine?

Hi sdotg and welcome! I can highly recommend fennel tea for helping a windy baby to sleep. As you are breast feeding, you just need to drink it rather than giving it to DS. It's not the nicest (especially if you are used to nice milky sugary builders tea) but it will help

4 month thing: I think it's just a case of gritting your teeth & muttering 'this will pass'. The developmental psychologists say that trying to sleep train at 4 months is a complete waste of time. Things apparently stabilise after a few weeks and then either babies get the hang of going to sleep again, or they don't, and you need to do some sort of sleep training to re-teach them. Oh, what fun!

On that note, Littlestlass, how are things at your end?

sdotg, I know the difficulty with a windy baby - DS used to be like this but has much improved now.

Jcee sounds like you are going through exactly the same thing as us. I found this, which explains what is going on. Just a case of grin and bear it I think. DD was 19 weeks last week so this seems to fit exactly. She has also started rolling from front to back and can sit unsupported for a few seconds so think her little brain can only cope with so much

We had a better night last night though - a few awakenings but she was better at settling back to sleep. She has also been waking up earlier and this morning she refused to nap (not through lack of trying) but slept for 2 hours in the pram over lunchtime. Have just managed to get her to sleep in her cot so I am hoping we might be coming out the other side now.

AngelDog glad things have improved for you - it must be nice to give your back a rest after all that sling napping.

sdotg welcome. Have a read through the thread - think we have all been there at some point with our DC only napping in a certain place. I think we have all managed to make some improvements though so just hang in there - it does get better (until you hit 4 months and they forget it all of course )

Hey all, hope all is well, looking forward to your news from over the weekend. Sorry not been posting, will explain all. xx

Hello yellowbutterfly I was starting to think everyone had solved their naptime problems and had no more need of this thread.

Quick update here - things are continuing to improve although have had to endure some horrendous bedtimes with DD screaming for hours. Last night it only took about 15 mins and she was a lot calmer and tonight she protested slightly but a few strokes of her head and she was out like a light.

Have been a chicken with naps though and have taken her out rather than having to endure all the screaming. She has been sleeping fine in the pram and car so will start again with the cot on Tuesday.

Hope the rest of you are OK

sounds interesting yellowbutterfly! pdog - glad you've had some improvement - the horrible screaming doesn't sound like fun.

We've been up and down - fewer wakings but more random early ones and taking longer to go back to sleep. Time at which DS moves into our room has moved from 5.30 to 4. All got a bit much over the weekend. Have decided tho to instigate a no coming out of your room until 6.30 rule (don't really want to co sleep). Whther i'll stick to it at 5.30 am is another matter! But next few days I have a chance to nap in day as girls are at school and nursery.

Napping pretty sorted, although always in pram. but he will sleep longer than 45 mins and go back off on his own if he does wake.

Hope everyone else is ok.

hello can i join you all....

Im a first time anxious mum who has a beautiful dd who can and will stay awake for about 8 hours at a time she is 10 weeks old and breast fed.

I have read your thread from the beginning *(hope you dont mind ) and have found it comforting to know im not alone!

We live in dubai at the moment and the heat is tiring me out even more but not dd cant do pram walks as it's too hot, swaddling is the same....

She can and will fall asleep in the pram/car, but never in her moses or cot. We have to rock, walk, feed her to sleep.

Also she point blank refuses to to go back to sleep at night, normally awake from 2am to 5am when dh goes to work, will snooze on and off til 7am when we get up and then is starting the day over tired...the battle then commences for the rest of the day

No support over here at all, hence the post

Poor you! that sounds very tough. have a big hug at least from me.

Does she feed to sleep? I was still feeding DD1 to sleep at that age and she was the only one who slept through the night without intervention!

Hello all,

Well we have been on a visit to Granny and Grandpas for the past 10 days

Bless my parents, they drove 4 hours to pick us up, coinciding with DD's late breakfast feed so we could hopefully get back home before her lunch.

DD was very pleased to see them, smile all round (clever girl), fed DD, in car, fell asleep straight away, commented to Mum that she would only be asleep for 45 minutes, Mum laughed at me!!!, but guess!! what bang on 45 minutes DD woke up and was awake for the rest of the journey, my mum couldn't believe it!!!

However we have lots of improvements over the past 10 days. My mum has been shocked as to how little DD has been sleeping when clearly tired.
Being at mum and dads has given me the opportunity to concentrate on DD (no washing, cooking to do etc). Took her cot bumpers and set them up in exactly the same way, a god send as DD loves them (they have lions and giraffes on them which she loves) so she immediately felt at home.

Naps much improved, difficult to explain noe as have to feed her in a bit and DH needs some attention, will be in touch i'm sure tomorrow as weather is so crap and will be stuck in doors.

littlelass how are you getting on?

DrDoobs thanks for virtual pasta bake- one of my favourites.

fhutts how are you? need to know more about fennel seeds has been suggested for DD's constipation, SERIOUS problems at the mo, given lactulose past 2 days but gives her tummy ache are results in sobbing. Also given brown sugar in water, which helps but don'e really want to give it every day!!

Sdotg welcome, another premie mum like me how confusing is it??????? oh we are going to have such chats!!!!

barbie1 welcome too. We have had some hot days here and the summer is supposed to be really hot, our bedroom is boiling and want to get DD into her room which will be much cooler, BUT still has half the plaster missing from the wall. Will be after some tips
It does feel like the battle never ends when they don't sleep,m you have come to the right place for help and support.

Anyway, I do have some moaning to do and to tales of success but just wanted to catch up for now.

AngelDog how you doing??

Will write more soon
xx

Thanks drdoobs for the hug

She cluster feeds throughout the day so yes i suppose she does fed to sleep sometimes, however most of the time she is over tired and does the frantic head bobbing thing and doesnt latch on to fed. When she calms down she uses my boob as soother and comfort sucks.

Im not too bothered about routine or even getting her to sleep in her cot.....i would just like her to sleep any which way!

Yesterday she managed 4 x 10-20 mins naps but it was bloody tough going to get her to sleep each time

i know the things im doing wrong but to be honest id rather correct them at a later stage and just get the poor baby to sleep for both our sakes.

Although that said she has had 2x naps this morning and its only just mid day here combination of shh/ pat routine and sucking to sleep.

yellowbutterfly i thought for one minute you were asking me for tips on plastering the other half of the nursery!

Hello all. Welcome, barbie1. Your situation sounds pretty horrible.

DrDoobs, hope you're feeling more cheerful today.

yellow, glad to hear of improvements.

PDog, hope cot nap attempts go well.

Things ok but not great here. I've hurt my hand quite a lot and have long-running problems with the other hand, so lifting / handling DS is very difficult. My dad stayed last week to do all the manual labour & DH did it at the the w/e but am on my own today although some people from church are popping in to help.

Sleep training has had to be parked for the time being. I'm feeding lying down, which neither DS nor I particularly enjoy. We're sort of co-sleeping at night & sort of for naps so I don't have to pick DS up. Unfortunately his sleepy signs are less obvious when he's lying down and feeding him into a state of drowsiness is much harder lying down, so there is more crying than usual.

However, he has had a reasonable number of naps and the nights haven't been too bad. The night before last he slept from 8.15pm to 6am!

He has decided, though, that 5.30/6am is generally a good time to be up for the day. Fortunately, first thing is the one time of day he can go to sleep on his own, so after I've fed him and then listened to him giggling for another 45 mins he usually drops off and I can have another 30 mins or so of snoozing before having to get up 'properly'. Given that he usually only wakes up once or twice a night, I still feel surprisingly exhausted.

barbie1 tips on how to get DH to do the plastering would be great . Sorry was rushing as per usual, I meant dealing with hot weather.

So naps,
Generally speaking DD much improved. I don't seem to have to catch her at exactly the right moment any more to get her to go to sleep, or else wait for the next opportunity an hour later IYSWIM. Ii think she has just "grown up a bit" and doesn't have such cyclic sleep/awake patterns.

For morning naps she goes to sleep with about 5 to 10 mins moaning, then sleeps for 30 mins/45 mins, she then shouts/plays with toys/moans for between 10 and 20 mins, then goes back to sleep for an hour to an hour and a half .

Afternoon a little better, she has 30 to 45 mins, IN HER PRAM Sometimes just in the living room !!!

Don't think it is anything i've particularly done, just not got into bad habits. Cot means sleep or quiet time. If clearly not going to sleep after 20 mins she comes out so that the cot doesn't become a horrible place to be.

AngledDog hope your hands improve quickly, must be very frustrating.

Hello Ladies!
I was hoping I wouldn't feel the need to join this thread, friendly though it is....(!) but, hey...

I'm very impressed with everything you're trying to do to improve your LO's sleep and I hope to add/receive some support and tips from/for my own situation.

My DD is 14 weeks, 10 weeks corrected (hello other mums of premmies!) which means, as someone said above, I'm never quite sure where we are in terms of developmental milestones and things like growth spurts etc...

My main problem is the nights. I'm lucky in some ways because I can usually get DD down for the night by 2000 without too much fussing. It's her waking pattern that's somewhat tiresome. The first sleep stretch is the longest - at worst, 3 hours, at best 5 (for the first time last night) after that she wakes up every 1-3 hours (usually with gradually shortening gaps...3 hours, then 2, then 1.5....) until 0800-0900 (which I recognise is an eminently civilised getting up time!) We tried to use her dummy to lengthen the gaps which worked to some extent, but produced the disastrous result of her becoming horribly dummy-dependent, waking up every ten minutes needing it to be replugged - in short, it was much worse for her sleep and mine.

Yesterday I started Operation Remove Dummy, which has been reasonably successful so far, touch wood. Where we were getting a bit cavalier with offering her the dummy, I'm now much stricter, only giving it to her where it seems absolutely necessary to soothe her, naps and overnight. I'm gently taking it from her after about 10 mins and so far (SO FAR...), this hasn't disturbed her too much. In fact, her first 5 hour stretch last night could well have been because she fell asleep without the dummy...

I've also started swaddling her, after thinking she didn't like it. But after a little protesting initially, it does seem to be helping her sleep better (unless she gets her arms free, which is another story!) - Dr Karp's 5S calming technique is also being used as a way of avoiding dummy use and to get her in a calm and - hopefully - sleep-ready state of mind.

Her naps are okay, I've been working on those for a while. Now she naps mainly in her pram (although I've had to bring in Rock And Stop as she was getting too dependent on constant motion to get off to sleep. Now we back and forth until she starts to droop then stop - starting again if necessary, but leaving her to actually fall asleep when the pram isn't moving...so far, so good...) She can seldom manage more than an hour awake without getting tired and teasy, so that's when I tend to get her down. I try and make sure at least one of her naps - sometimes more - is in her babynest. I try to get her to do a 2-hour minimum sleep at lunchtime, often needing to pram rock her on after her first cycle. She also seems to need a 45 minute recharge ending no later than 1800 so she won't be overtired for her 1900ish bed time. Most of her naps are in the 45 mins - 1 hour timeframe.

We have a bedtime routine that includes a bath, a little bit of massage, a lullaby and a final feed. I've noticed if the routine gets out of kilter, she's much harder to get off to sleep.

Overnight she MOSTLY resettles fairly quickly, apart from the recent dummy disasters (which I'm hoping are behind us, but I'm not going to crack open the Champers just yet), it's just the number of wake-ups that is the killer. I usually only change her once overnight, unless she poos or her nappy's leaked and I keep it all as calm and quiet as possible to encourage sleep.

DD is exclusively breast-fed (after a hellish time getting it established) and we co-sleep (with her in her babynest in a side-car arrangement). It means all I have to do is reach out an arm to be able to touch her.

I've got EP's NCSS and I'm using various of her suggestions.

Anyway, I realise I'm not doing badly compared with those who have to cope with loads of screaming, endless re-settling times and non-existent napping...but I'd LOVE a longer stretch of sleep one of these days - for her as well as me!

Sorry that was long, thought I'd fill you all in. Really glad some of you are seeing improvements - but boy, isn't it always one step forward, half a step back with babies??!

Hello all

DrDoobs hope your night times are getting better. How is the no coming out of your room thing going? It is so hard to stick to things when you're knackered. DD has taken to waking up at 6am but if I bring her in bed and give her a cuddle she will go back to sleep for an hour but only for me, not DH. Know it will become a bad habit but need my sleep too much

Barbie1 welcome, sending you some vitual Galaxy, hope it doesn't melt in the heat . I wouldn't worry too much about doing things 'wrong' at this stage. Your DD is still young and at that stage I would do anything to get her to sleep. Have you tried a sling? Not great for your back but you can get on a bit and at least have your arms free to eat, drink etc. I found my DD would sleep quite happily in there until she got til about 15/16 weeks, I could even do the hoovering.

YellowButterfly glad to hear things are improving for you. Having just done a trip back to visit family myself, it is good to have doting relatives on hand isn't it? I am fed up of nagging DH to put up a shelf in DD's room so don't know how you are coping with the plastering not been done.

AngelDog hope your arm gets better soon. I know what you mean about feeling more tired. DD only wakes once in the night but I am finding it harder and harder to cope with - think it is just the cumalative (sp?) effect of months of little sleep and rarely having the opportunity to catch up due to short or non existent naps.

Welcome InmaculadaConcepcion. Sounds like you are pretty sorted with naps. Sorry, not much help with night time sleep as my DD is usually pretty good. I think she did go through a phase of waking more frequently in the second half of the night at about 12 weeks. TBH, if I was sure she wasn't hungry, hot/cold, dirty or wet, I just ignored her. Difficult as she is right next to me and very noisy but she only did it for about a week.

Good morning here with DD napping in her cot without much of a battle but bad afternoon. She had her imms at lunchtime though so am putting it down to that. A good dose of Calpol, a nice bath and a long feed seem to have done the trick, although my back is still recovering from 30 minutes spent crouched over her crib stroking her as she whimpered to sleep.

Jcee how are you? Have you passed the 4 month regression/spurt yet?

The no coming out of the room didn't last long! night before last he did it himself - woke at 11.30 and 5.45 and went back to sleep ok. last night woke 10.30, 2 (awake until 3.30) and 5.15 when he came straight into our bed. i had no resolve after the 1 1/2 hours awake!! he's just such a random boy...

how's the arm angelgod any better today??

welcome also IC and barbie1. pdog hope you had a good night - our best nights have been after imms .

Might try the ignoring, PDog, but I'm always paranoid that she's hungry (probably a hangover from how difficult it was to get the breast-feeding going and how I'm always a touch paranoid that she's not getting sufficient as a result...). I usually leave her for a short while if she had a feed quite recently, but invariably cave after a while. Maybe I'll try the dummy again, but this time REMOVE the damn thing once she's re-settled. That could work...

Angeldog bad luck with the hands - I seem to have developed some sort of RSI in my left hand from picking up DD, so I sympathise. Having both crocked must BE a crock...
I agree with you, btw that many babies need to be taught how to sleep (although not all, )

The thought of the 4 month regression fills me with dread, I must say. Do they all get it?!

On the subject of baby massage and crying...well, if you're interested in our experiences with that, take a look at this

Last night's wake-ups (after asleep by 19.45)

22.30 - 23.00 (broke out of swaddle...fed and resettled)
02.15 - 03.15 (feed, nappy change, feed, resettle)
05.45 - 06.15 (feed, resettle)
0700 - 07.15 (feed, resettle)
0800 up for the day.

A fairly average night, really. I probably got about 5.5 hours kip, which isn't too bad (for me, 5 hours and above is acceptable).

I send all your babies happy, sleepy vibes and all their mums virtual chocolate of whatever description takes your fancy...

barbie1, I would second PDog's sling suggestion. You can get some eg Solaweave Connecta which are designed for summer use & are sun resistant. I've also read that people in hot climates often swaddle with a thin cotton sheet, with baby in just their nappy.

InmaculadaConcepcion, I would also go for the ignoring tactic at night if she's not crying. If she does need feeding, she'll tell you! As long as she's producing plenty of wet/dirty nappies, you'll know she's getting enough food. All the books say that babies this age need 1 or 2 night feeds. Our breakthrough with DS's nighttime sleeping came when I (unintentionally) ignored him, and he just got himself back off to sleep.

I don't bother nappy changing at night at all unless I can smell poo (or DS's clothes feel wet). I was amazed how much extra sleep we all got once I stopped doing it as a matter of course.

I too found Harvey Karp's 5 Ss useful, although I never managed to perfect a technique which would calm DS quickly. He definitely likes jiggling rather than rocking - I've just discovered that rubbing his head very fast as if you're polishing it calms him down.

I have friends whose babies seemed to sail through the 4 months mark with no sign of sleep regression at all

DrDoobs, "Babies are random" is a good line to remember. DS slept 8pm - 6am the other night, but the next night was up 3 times. It's always worse after a really good night has got your hopes up!

yellowbutterfly - hooray about the naps. I'd read that as babies got older it was less crucial to find the 'tired window', but it's reassuring to hear it does work in practice! DS is still at the stage where he has a bit of a meltdown if I miss his sleepy signs. When your DD 'shouts' before going back to sleep in naps, how shouty is it? I'm a bit of a wuss when it comes to leaving DS crying, but I'm thinking maybe I should brace myself and try letting him shout for a few minutes in case he can get back off.

PDog, we have imms on Friday - I'm dreading it. DS gets really tired after them but since he can't self-settle, he just shrieks and nothing calms him apart from slinging him.

My hands seem to be improving, thanks, which is a great relief. I was able to feed sitting in the chair today which was wonderful - lots of feeding lying down has left me feeling as if I've had a run in with a cheese grater!

Glad your hands are feeling better, AD! Good luck with the imms, too...

Well, I tried the dummy thing last night and stretched out one between-feeds from 2 to 3 hours. Second attempt was less successful as she obviously decided not to be fobbed off with the dummy. Ironically, I get LESS sleep if I use the dummy tactic, even if she goes back off. Think I remain on the alert for a possible wake up, once I've been roused and it's hard to relax back into sleep (I've never been a great sleeper myself, I do hope DD hasn't inherited that trait!)

So:

1945 sleep
0045 - 02.15 wake - feed, nappy change, resettle
03.45 - wake, dummy given, back to sleep (her, anyway)
0430 - 0445 - wake, feed, resettle
06.30 - 0700 - wake, dummy, give up, feed
0800 - wake, make "I want up" noises...I ignore for a time
0840 - feed, up for the day

I'll try persevering with the ignoring and will perhaps cut out the nappy change - I only do one and previously have noticed that she sleeps for longer after a change, but who knows?

Thanks for the support!

Ooh swaddling. I live in Spain and use a muslin swaddling sheet to do the job. You can get them from Aden & Anais. At the moment it's still quite cool overnight, so DD wears a sleepsuit as well, but I'll get rid of that once the nights heat up.

Woohoo - random boy slept 7pm until 5am last night! but was still in our bed at 6am...

Don't know if any of this has helped but I have instigated a no rocking policy in the pram - he now crys for about 5 mins then settles down and drifts off about 5 mins later. He's also found him thumb although doesn't always use it. He's also been having really good lunchtime naps and much shorter morning naps. He does wake during the lunchtime nap but tends to drift off again. At the mo he's managing to sleep through the noise of sandblasting on the neighbour's roof - pretty impressive!

Hey all

AngelDog when she shouts its actually very funny, she sometimes stops and waits for a reply. Over time i have come to tell the difference between "i'm just shouting" and "get me out of here i'm not going to sleep". I've spent A LOT of time running up and down stairs reassuring her that she has not been abandoned and peeking through the crack in the door when i'm not sure if the shouting is angry or just shouting (her facial expression gives it away if i'm ever in doubt). Another funny thing DD does is laugh at the floor boards creaking as she knows i'm coming!!
I don't leave her to cry as i'm sure she only does this for a reason (tried to once and turning into sobbing)

I only hope this continues.

Hi everyone and welcome to barbie1 and IC

Sounds like some of you are making progress, long may it continue...

After my last post where I was fearing the worst after a couple of hellish days/nights, since then things have been ok - she is still not napping regularly and it can be a battle to get her down at times, she also gives me the runaround exactly as you describe yellowbutterfly with 'fake' shouting and she has gone back to her old nighttime sleep pattern with a just a few wakenings, which I can cope with.

So I'm not sure if DD was having the 4 month regression/growth spurt (desperately hoping so although Pdog not noticed any development change!) or as Drdoobs says she is just being random and trying to keep me on my toes!

Angeldog - glad to hear your hand is better and good luck with the imms on Friday - we had the last set yesterday and DD was fine - much better after these than the previous two

barbie1 I agree with everyone's sling suggestion - a sling saved me when DD was younger as it was the only way i could get her to sleep or do stuff round the house.

InmaculadaConcepcion I don't nappy change at night as I found it woke DD up too much and it took ages to settle her back to sleep. I'm currently trying to ignore her (or figure out if I need to get up) and it seems to be working as she'll take a bit of time but usually re-settle herself but anunfortunate side effect seems to be she goes back to sleep and DP and I are wide awake after listening to her babbling away on the monitor!

fhutts - how's things with you? Did the fennel tea work?

Yellowbutterfly, your DD sounds very clever!

Yay, Dr Doobs! I actually prefer a middle-of-the-night waking but sleep till 7am than a whole night but waking at 5 - it's easier to go back to sleep in the small hours than it is at 5!

IC, I know what you mean about you being awake. When DS first started sleeping through-ish (he did it for a week, IIRC), I was still up 3-4 times a night for AGES at a time. In fact, I was lying awake last night thinking about you lot after DS had gone straight to sleep after feeding at 2am.

I tried ignoring DS after I fed him at 5am today but he did a grizzling cry which got louder over 20-25 mins until I gave up, put in a dummy and he went back to sleep.

DS has napped this afternoon for THREE HOURS - it feels like ages since he last did more than 45 mins. Seriously, 3 hours is normally his total daytime sleep - on a good day. I wish I'd known in advance, then I could have had a lie down myself.

Babies really are random...after the mammoth nap, DS was yawning within half an hour - so much so that I started the bedtime routine only 45 mins after the last nap. Let's hope it leads to a through-the-night sleep since he's such a well-rested baby.

Me again. I looked at the 'only joking' board for the first time today and found this thread which I thought you might enjoy: Sleeping throught the night - a baby's perspective.