'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Hello all. I need some advice about my little boy, who is 16 weeks old.

He has always been a very good sleeper: slept through the night at 10 weeks old, and usually gets up once in 12 hours for a feed, goes straight back down.

But over the last couple of weeks, he has been waking earlier and earlier, crying for milk (he is FF). Now he is up every two hours in the night, guzzling milk, sometimes more than he can manage, so he often brings some back up straight away.

He naps well and feeds well during the day.

Any ideas?

Hi all of you with night-waking LOs - 2-hourly feeds have been the order of the day (or rather, night) for the last few for my DD...ugh.

Welcome newcomers, bad luck that you've had to join this thread, but at least it's comforting to know that there are others as stressed and/or sleep-deprived as you are!! A chocolate brioche to all...

Those of you who have to survive the "witching hour" pre-bedtime screamfest, well, DD's been pulling that one lately too. The last few times she's been so beside herself, feeding and sleeping have been impossible. I've had to pram-rock her into calmness before resuming the bedtime routine. All very well, but we're flying back to the UK for a weekend soon and we can't bring the pram. Yikes. I'm busy acclimatising DD to taking all naps in her baby nest and rocking that in my arms as a soother. Here's hoping...

MamaLazarou - good old 4 month growth spurt/sleep regression...? Poor you. It's probably a case of just riding it out, but I'm no expert. Virtual chocolate to you...

Goldensnitch, Sending virtual chocolate. An alternative approach might be to work on getting DD to take one nap a day (I'd have a go at the morning one) and gradually work up from there. It would be less hassle for you and might have a less dramatic effect on the night.

I don't know whether the catnaps may have had an effect - apparently very short naps take the edge of the tiredness so it's harder to fall asleep, but don't actually give the benefits of a nap. I do hope tonight is better.

Welcome, MamaLazarou and WilloughbyWallaby. I would guess at the 4-month growth spurt/sleep regression - if you read back over the thread you will find some links to other websites about it.

fhutts, glad that you're getting some naps, even if short ones, and that bedtime has been better.

DS slept for THREE HOURS (again) at lunchtime today. Like yellowbutterfly, I wish he'd told me beforehand that it would be more than 45 minutes as I could have had a proper sleep. Babies truly are random. Feeling a bit down today - fed up of being stuck in the house with no adult company, but am planning a trip out tomorrow if my dodgy hand is up to it.

Hi everyone and welcome newcomers

Sounds like everyone is making some progress....as yellowbutterfly said last week if you read back over our thread we are all having improvements but it's hard to see it when you are tired or have had a bad day/night(s)

Angeldog and yellowbutterfly sounds like babies should come with sleeping versions of those cooking timers that turkeys have which pop up when they are ready then you'd know how long nap is left...

I have no such trouble as DD naps for 30 minutes a time and no more and that's once we've had the fight to get her drowsy and in her cot. I'm getting serious arm and throat ache from rocking and shushing.

Like IC - fab blog by the way and gorgeous pic of your DD she's so cute - I've been using a muslin to cover the pram or carseat to encourage DD to nap when we are out. But until I read fhutts comment earlier today I'd never thought of using a muslin at home.

Anyway I tried it this afternoon whilst DD was protesting loudly at being put in the cot and it calmed her right down! She messed about kicking and waving it for a few minutes then pulled it to her face and settled down for 30 minutes...think I will continue to try this to see if it really works or was a random one off...

Thanks AngelDog, I have marshmallows which are helping

Today hasn't been so bad. DS(3) has been very well behaved and because we've been out for most of the day, it seems to have gone quite quickly.

DD's slept for a total of 75 minutes today. 40 minutes this morning (most of that while at a noisy toddler group too), 10 minutes around lunch and 25 minutes while out and about this afternoon. Not a lot really. I was talking to a childminder at Toddler group and she couldn't belive how little DD sleeps!

We're off to a bad start this evening too. DD is usually an angel when going off to sleep. We do bath and a feed and then she goes down easily at about 7.15. It's almost half 8 now and she's still screaming

I need to get her weighed next week as she's very low on the chart in the red book and the HV's want to keep an eye on her - she's just below the 2nd percentile - and I'm wondering whether that's part of her sleep problem?

A question for everyone, how long a gap is there between the last nap ending and going to sleep at bedtime. And how does that compare with your DC's normal awake time?

I can't quite work out DS's timings. Today his last nap ended at 5pm. Normally he's up for 1.5 - 2 hours, but he didn't want to go to sleep at 7pm (he was cheerful, but not sleepy till about 7.30pm). I never know what to do if a nap ends (for example) at about 4pm - staying up till 7 means screaming from 6pm, another nap means bedtime ridiculously late, but an extra-early 6pm bedtime means he wakes up at silly o'clock the next morning.

It took until 9 to get her to go to sleep and now she's up feeding again!!

Not sure I'm much help with your question AngelDog. Maybe just try shifting things by half an hour rather than a full hour? He might not wake quite so early then?

Good question Angeldog as I'm never sure about this either as it seems to change from one day to the next...

We start the bath and bedtime routine at about 7ish every night but depending on how screamy/cooperative she is, depends on how quickly we get through it - we now aim to get her in bed by 8pm and not counting any nighttime waking and resettling, she wakes up about 7am.

Recently when we have started routine a bit earlier or raced through it to get her in bed because she was super screamy, she was awake next morning between 5 and 6am, so we have gone back to in bed by 8pm routine.

Napwise, she will nap at about 9am for 30 minutes, same again at about 1-2pm. If we are out in the pram morning or afternoon she will nap but again it's only for 30 minutes at a time when she does.

On the bad days (when we eat tea with her screaming at us) usually her last nap was the 2pm one. On the good days, she will have an additional nap sometime between 5 and 6.

Not sure if that helps you, but writing it down has made me realise how little DD actually naps...

Thanks, both.

GoldenSnitch, I feel your pain - DS was up 4 times last night instead of the usual 2. In fact, the previous time he had a 3 hour nap he was up 4 times at night - coincidence, or are extra-long naps A Bad Thing? He certainly seemed as if he needed it at the time as he was super grumpy beforehand and extra-cheerful afterwards.

Every time we have a bad night either DH or I say "Maybe it's the 4 month sleep regression" but so far they just seem to be random bad nights. Phew.

Dr Doobs, I saw this and thought of you - someone asking for help because their baby was awake for a spell in the middle of the night. What interested me was that in the comments on this post, someone called Lydia said that her DD was the same, but did it every time she went through a developmental spurt, and then went back to normal afterwards. Let's hope Random Boy gets back to normal quickly.

Hi all,

Sorry I haven't been around. DP has been off work so we've been trying to do DD's room (I need her out NOW!!!) and so I haven't had much of a chance to Mumsnet!

DD still completely confusing me. During DP's week off, she started properly napping! We'd wake her after an hour in the morning, after 2 hours at lunch and she woke herself after 45 minutes in the afternoon. Plus it generally only took 5 minutes of crying for her to go to sleep. It was unbelievable! Night time sleep still pretty rubbish though, mainly as I was so knackered she fell asleep on me. If we do this she treats me like an all night buffet and eats every hour and a half waking me up all the time.

Anyway, DP now back at work, she's totally confused and back to sleeping for 25-45 minutes at each nap. Sigh. Night time even worse though last night not bad - 20 minutes of feeding at 10.00, 40 minutes at 1.20 and an hour (I fell asleep!) at 4.00. She did however then wake up at 5.40 and DP got her up so I could sleep

Plus she's started going to sleep in the pushchair without needing the muslin.... but only sometimes.

4 month sleep regression is very confusing!!

We tried (at DP's insistence) to get her to sleep without feeding her on Tuesday night and she screamed solidly for 40 minutes. This was after I ended up in floods of tears because my nipples hurt so much - I was crying so hard that while DP held DD she stopped crying and listened in confusion. Poor DP - he's getting it from all angles now....

To whoever said about early weaning "advice" (sorry - sleep deprived and can't remember!!) I know exactly what you mean. Am starting to get really fed up of MIL (who gave my DP and his brother some ice cream at a week old ) who would have had DD on solids at 2 months had she had her way. If I have to say "The WHO recommends weaning at 6 months and that's what I want to aim for" one more time I'll scream. Particularly as DD is at a higher risk of allergies as her father has food allergies and I have asthma.

Also spoke to a woman in Boots the other day whose daughter was 16 weeks and had been on solids for a few weeks - found it really hard not to be disapproving as it's her choice, but it's not something I could do...

Anyway, hope everyone else is doing well and not suffering too badly. Also welcome to all the next generation of sleepless Mums, you are not alone

Angeldog How are you doing with the hand?

Hi All

Angeldog I usually try and make sure DD gets her last nap between 1700 and 1800, not waking later than 1815. It seems late, but DD can't usually manage more than about an hour without getting tired. I start the bedtime routine shortly after 1830 with a bath and some no-nappy time, then we have the new-nappy yelling time (which I managed to quell last night by rocking DD in the babynest in my arms...worked very well, as did breast feeding her kneeling up and rocking at the same time). I put her down after the last feed at about 1930 and sometimes she goes straight off or sometimes she sucks her dummy for a while and drops off at 2000ish. At the moment she seems okay to be left in my room with her dummy and I just check her every so often (unless I hear her doing the "I've lost my dummy" noises and need to re-plug) until I'm satisfied she's properly asleep. Then I gently remove the dummy and hope she'll stay down for a minimum of 4 hours until she wakes up for a feed...

Last night she was up 3 times for a feed between midnight and 0700, including spending an hour awake 0515-0615. She was so full of beans, I changed her nappy and carried her out to bid farewell to my dad and nan, who were just leaving to catch their train. Then she conked out again no problem, sin dummy. Thankfully.

AngelDog I try not to let DD sleep after 5pm.
Normally she is awake form 3.30 pm ish until bedtime at 6pm. Its a long afternoon in our house. Lots of afternoon walks.

littlelass good to have you back. We still need to do DD's room, getting worried that if we don't move her soon it will get more difficult as she gets older. Plus we are starting to disturb her.

Hark she calls, must go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG! OMG! OMG! DD just napped for 1 hour and 45 minutes!!!

I'm going to get no sleep at all tonight am I?

Hello all and welcome newcomers.

Welcome back fhutts and littlestlass glad to hear you are both well.

fhutts I'm sure nurseries are used to nap resistant babies but you could maybe give them a ring to put your mind at rest?

AngelDog How's the hand? DD doesn't tend to nap after 4.30pm. Bedtime routine starts at 6.10pm with bed no later than 8pm. Last feed usually takes an hour or more cos she is so knackered she dozes through it. She has occasionally napped until 5.30pm but not very often.

Flightoffancy my DD is on 91st centile and I am also fed up of people telling me she needs weaning. Everytime time I speak to my dad he asks me when DD is started 'proper' food and that when she does she will sleep through . I just nod and smile while seething inside.

GoldenSnitch good for you. My DD had a half hour nap in her cot yesterday, followed by a 2 hour nap in her pram . Then slept from 8pm til 5pm . Hope you get the same luck tonight.

DD is still totally random. Have endured a few nights of her waking every 2 to 3 hours to feed (possible late growth spurt?) but normal (if not better) sleep behaviour has emerged over the last 2 nights.

The same cannot be said for naps. I had been having some success with the first nap of the day (settling herself, in her cot) but she has refused this the last 2 days and I have had to feed her to sleep. She has had long naps (2 hours plus) in her pram in the afternoon to make up for it though. Still doesn't help in getting anything done in the house - think my bed sheets are about to sprout legs they have been on so long .

Hope those of you with night time issues have a better time of it tonight.

Hello, I to have a fights sleep little one. She is 14 weeks and has never been a good sleeper. In the early weeks she hardly slept at all,then went on to 3 hours in the day and 3 in the night in one go,then on to 4 hours at night an hour settling and another two hours and I thought that was tough!
There were two nights of a 5 hour stretch a few weeks ago-sheer bliss!!Didn't do anything different.
Now I'm lucky if she does a 3 hour stretch at night and then bits and pieces after(hard to remember what/when).
She does nap in the day usually once in her pram when in the park and once in the morning in her swing which takes half hour of hand holding,dummy replacing and crying.
I usually cluster feed her pretty much all evening(in front of the telly on low)and she drops off on the breast and then I put her in her cot. She has never fallen asleep in her cot-all out screaming when I've tried.
My partner wants us to get a sleep doula for couple of nights as my health is suffering lately-anyone used one?
My only tip for anyone else with little ones who scream in their prams/carseats is to get a dummy-it changed my life!
I think the main problem is they can't self settle-I see her trying by holding her hands together up to her face and down again and I have wondered how much crying it would take for her to fall asleep on her own.But I just hate to hear her cry and cry and think she is too young anyway to sleep train.
She also like others here does frantic fist sucking/drooling-could be early teething? She also scratches behind one ear?? Anyone elses do that?
Has anyone done or considered giving a little oatmeal before bed?(once they are 17 weeks)If so has it made any difference-my mum is sure it will.
Anyway all tips/advice welcome-haven't been able to read through all the posts yet.
Glad to know there are others coping so well,gives me hope.

Thanks everyone for letting me know how you work the last nap.

My hand is improving, thanks people - DS and I managed to get out of the house today which was wonderful!

Greetings, floppops. I think I remember some of your posts from early on in your DD's life. Personally, I'd forget any attempts to get her to self-settle; lots of babies just develop that ability later than others. My own opinion is that it's better to get into 'bad' habits in how you get them to sleep than to encourage the bad habit of not sleeping at all. Just doing whatever it takes for everyone to get some sleep would be my top priority. DS has never just 'gone to sleep' in his cot, although he has progressed from me putting him down in a deep sleep to being able to put him down very drowsy but still awake. But his sleeping habits are much better than they used to be and I feel so much better as a result.

I've not used a sleep doula, but I have heard good things about night nannies: see here. If you search the sleep board for posts with 'night nannies' you'll find people who've used them.

I think fist sucking / drooling is normal at this stage - the babies I know do it all the time. Don't know about the ear scratching, I'm afraid.

I'm with the others here on waiting till 6 months to start solids (I'm probably going to try BLW because I can't be bothered with the effort of pureeing things ). Everyone I know in real life seems to be wanting to wean early, though.

floppops, all the info I've heard is that starting solids makes no difference to sleeping - even the official NHS leaflet says so specifically! My own opinion is that the health risks to DS of starting early outweigh any possibility of the scientists being wrong & the old wives being right on the sleep thing - but I know many people who disagree!

Littlestlass, glad you're still hanging in there. If you need a break from feeding, could you try either a dummy/finger to suck or a bottle of expressed milk (followed by a dummy/finger to suck if necessary?) It is absolutely miserable when you feel all chewed, isn't it?

GoldenSnitch, on the nap - I do hope that sleep begets sleep for you tonight.

As Jcee says, looking back you can see improvements for most of us, and tips from each other (eg Littlest's muslins) which have helped - so I think we should all feel chuffed with our progress.

Wishing you all a restful night.

So far so good on the night sleep. She was really tired after bathtime and fell asleep on DH while I was reading DS his story. I don't usually get to read DS a story as she screams for food from the moment she leaves the water! Woke her for a feed and then put her to bed at her usual 7.30 time. She's been down ever since!!

Fingers crossed things have gone back to normal.

I was thinking about starting weaning with DD on Monday when she reaches 5 months. DS was weaned at 5 months because he stopped putting on weight for 6 weeks and DD is very near the bottom of the graph - below the 2nd percentile line. Her weight has really slowed down recently and the HV's have been mentioning bottles but DD won't take a bottle at all. I've only tried ones with EBM in but she just screams and refuses to suck. She gets so upset. So my only option is to start weaning really. Going to take her to the clinic to be weighed on Monday and see what's happening with her weight. If she's sticking to her line then I'll hold off as DH and I are both Atopic. I had wondered if her low weight had something to do with her not sleeping through but not expecting miracles. I just want her to be healthy.

Goodnight everyone. Hope it's a good nights sleep for all.

Have just got my DD down for a morning nap after half hour of crying,dummy sucking and breastfeeding! Is worth it though as she gets easily overtired.
Last night she did manage 3 1/2 hours till her feed at 1.30 although woke once briefly-dummy in and dropped off again.Bits and pieces of sleep after that in the bed.She has started crying lately whereas before she would just flap about.
Partner complained of being woken in the night(he sleeps next door)and then this morning at 7.45 while I was talking to DD when washing up I heard loud sshhing from his room! Cheek!!Brought it up with him when he woke up and was shouted at-doesn't help DD settle!Anyone else dealing with difficult partners too?

Goldensnitch I thought you may have a good night after you LO's long nap- funny how if they sleep well they sleep even better IYSWIM.

We started weaning last week, I'm atopic and taking it really slowly. DD also has a single patch of eczema behind her knee so i'm planning to be really careful. This patch came out using bubble bath for the first time (yes i know it sounds gross just bathing her in plain water until last week - i have my reasons ).

In a way at least it came out before introducing any major foods but will be keeping an eye on things.(DD still on baby rice- not sure why everyone is so against it, it smells and looks like Ready Break- yum).

floppops I agree dummies are useful, its all we use in the night to settle DD off again. Again i don't see why people are so anti dummies, they help reduce the risk of SIDS too.
Not looking forward to the dummy fairy visiting in a year or so .

I also agree we are all making progress (or maybe our LO's are growing up).

The past few days DD has gone down with no fussing both for naps and at bedtime. Even though she still wakes 20/30/45 mins later she no longer shouts, just chills out for about 14 mins and then goes back to sleep- she is so clever!!!

Mamlazaroo are things settling down? whats the latest?

Gosh! DD has just had the most amazing nap. She was really grizzly so took her out in the pram,she was asleep within 5 mins did a quick circuit of the park and then home. Put her pram in the coolest room of the house(as I kept her wrapped up) and left the window open and her pram draped with a muslin. She did start crying in her sleep after 1/2 hour,I put her dummy back in and then she slept another hour and a half!! Wow! Longest nap for months. Actually managed a nap myself!! Hope it helps with tonights sleep...

We did have quite a good night thanks yellowbutterfly DD woke again at 10.30 but as I was on my way to bed, I didn't mind too much. I fed her and she went through until about 5 this morning then back down till 7.20!

She's not napped much this morning but is upstairs now and has been for almost 45 minutes so far. DS is out with my MIL so the house is nice and quiet which might help.

DD and DS both get plain water baths unless they're properly dirty. DS had eczema as a baby and has had a bit back recently on his lower back but so far DD is clear. I've heard the Halo N Horns stuff is good if you do need anything - no Sodium laurel whatsits - I'm going to get some next time I'm shopping I think.

Agree about dummies too. Recent advice from FSIDS is to settle a baby with one to reduce the risk of cot death. Neither of my children have taken to a dummy but if they had, I would have had no problem giving them one.

Wow, well done, floppops and GoldenSnitch. Hope your DP is more understanding, floppops. DH is very good - he sleeps in the spare room at the mo, but our walls are very thick. And if DS is yelling, he is sympathetic on the basis that I'll be trying whatever I can to calm him down. But then he gets plenty of sleep and isn't grumpy due to sleep deprivation like I am!

We usually do plain water baths too.

DS was up 4 times last night, although one was before I was asleep so that wasn't too bad.

Another long nap this morning - I woke him after 2.25 hrs just in case it messed with the nights like the last times. I was thinking maybe he's getting the hang of longer naps - but he only managed 20 mins at the next one, and that was in the pram.

Does anyone else whose LO is in their room find they get disturbed more easily now? The last few nights I seem to have woken DS when I've gone to bed. I'm keen for him to stay in with me as long as he can, though, as if I have to go to another room for feeds, I'll wake up properly and struggle to get back to sleep myself.

Well done floppops and GoldenSnitch, long may it continue. My DH is very good, sleeps with me and does the night nappy change - I am very lucky I know.

We did plain water baths until a few weeks ago when I introduced some bubble bath. DD is quite sicky and wanted something to help her smell better. Her skin has been really dry since I've used it, even though we rub oil in every night. Got some Halo n Horns today, thanks GoldenSnitch, so will see how that goes.

DD has only been cat napping the last couple of days, 40 minutes at most, but has been having lots of them. Interestingly AngelDog, she had a late nap yesterday until about 5.45pm. I was able to read her a story and put her down fully awake and she slept until 5am

DD is still in our room and does tend to stir when we go to bed. She has woken a few times but less often recently. I don't want to move her while I'm still doing night feeds either AngelDog.

I gave up this morning trying to put DD down for her morning nap and did the pram around the park trick which pretty much always works.She is still asleep and I have managed to have a bath and wash my hair!
Anyway do you think it's ok to do this for all her naps-it is so much easier and less stressful,quicker and less tears? I know it creates bad sleep associations but I am thinking it's better right now when she's young to just get through!
No luck with nighttime sleeps though-she was up every 1 1/2 hours last night,still I managed to doze in between so don't feel too bad.
Hope everyone else is having more luck.

Hi All

floppops my DD has similar waking patterns to yours, you have my sympathy! I also regard it as a "good" night if both she and I resettle fast, even if she's up as frequently as every 1.5 - 2 hours... DH mostly doesn't hear her as she whimpers for quite a while before building up to actual crying, so I can usually catch her before the volume's loud enough to wake him too. The times I've tried to ignore the whimpering in the hope she'll resettle have mainly been unsuccessful. Irritatingly, DD isn't so interested in feeding plentifully during the day, she takes more in at night. I try to offer her more feeds or get her to feed longer during the day, but if she's not in the mood there's F.All I can do to cram any more milk down her. Ah well. I guess it will sort out in time.

Angeldog after outlining the late nap, she missed it that very day, which filled me with dread about dealing with an overtired baby when proper bed-time came about. In fact, she was okay - certainly no worse than normal, anyway.

The next night she was an hour late to bed and her afternoon nap schedule (such as it is) was all over the place...and she slept 5 hours without waking for only the second time in her life. Mind you, last night, she was so knackered she wanted to sleep almost an hour early and although she didn't go fully down until closer to her usual, she still did 4 hours without waking at all and 5 hours between feeds. No rhyme or reason to it.

Dummies - yes, I find them really useful and also hate them at the same time. The reason is the amount of re-plugging at times interferes hugely with both her sleep and mine. Now I use them for settling only and try and remove them once she's more-or-less asleep. Can take several attempts, though! But I find if I successfully remove the dummy, she then sleeps better as losing the damned thing during the top of a sleep cycle doesn't then wake her up again.

Some encouraging news on the nap front, hope it continues!!

Isn't it a great feeling when you judge the tiredness window just right and they little darlings go straight off to sleep without protest?!!