'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Well first night was rubbish as I cracked after 5 minutes as he didn't appreciate being cuddled but not fed. Last night, despite having to completely change him due to leaky nappy I managed to get him back off to sleep with an hour and a half of bottom patting. He didn't cry at all!! He was probably already asleep for an hour of the patting but I didn't realise .

This was at midnight and he then slept until 5. (he had had a bottle at 9.30 after previous pre bed feed at 6.30.

So plan is now to continue not to feed him between first bottle and 5 am. Bet tonight isn't as easy tho - I'll have jinxed it now.

Helenwombat, that sounds truly hideous. Has today been any better? I'd try lying down to feed as much as you can, so you can get some rest, even if DS doesn't.

NSTW, hope you manage okay tonight. Be careful with the patting - I managed to wreck my wrists with it (although I do have an underlying weakness). Well done to the Boy, though, on going back off without crying!

IC, according to some of the books, babies learn how to go to sleep ('on their own') best if you are consistent about how you get them off to sleep, ie always feeding or always patting etc. I think they get confused by different methods. (Although it doesn't matter if what you do in the day is different from at night, as day & night sleep seem to be controlled by different parts of the brain.) I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, of course.

Don't get too excited about the self-settling. It does seem to be continuing, but DS hasn't napped for more than 45 mins for ages. He quite often wakes up crying, can't be rocked back to sleep, but when I feed him, he drops straight off on my lap (but can't be put down).

And he now wakes in the sling after 15 mins if I've stopped moving.

No sign of self-settling at night and last night he was up at least 5 times (although only 3 in my night IYSWIM). In his defence, he's got at least 2 teeth coming through which seem to be bothering him. I did fall asleep twice while feeding him so it wasn't too bad. I'm sure he enjoyed the extra cuddles!

TBH, the patting happens if I've already done the feeding down thing, but DD is still restless. Or indeed, if she's had a big feed within the previous hour or so and it's unlikely she'll be interested in more. A comfort suck is still likely to resettle her more quickly than the patting, but it can backfire - if she doesn't want to eat, she gets cross which doesn't help her relax...

Hey ho... napping and sleeping magic to all...!

Well, have had 2 more nights without feeding between 12 and 5. 2 nd night he woke at 3 and then slept until 7, last night woke at 3 and slept until 5.40, then slept again after feeding. But still taking an hour and a half to get back to sleep when not fed . on the up side his 9.30 waking has moved back as he is definitely building up day calories instead - last night I had to dream feed at 11.40 as he still hadn't woken.

I've moved him almost entirely over to bottles now and he's on 3 meals, so that is helping with calorie loading - he was just too distractible on the boob.

Just not sure how to crack the 3am party.

Hope others have seen improvement too. Hope you get to enjoy some sun in the nap times!

Self-settling... pah! Naps have been hard work the last few days, including two huge out-and-about meltdowns and several episodes of pram-refusal. Serves me right for gloating. At least I've got a new summerweight sling now to stop the shrieking and do an 'emergency nap' if needed.

DS seems to have suddenly decided he doesn't want to be swaddled any more, nor does he want to be rocked the way he used to. I've not yet found a new rocking technique that works particularly well at inducing drowsiness. However, once he's asleep he's stayed asleep for a full 45 mins for naps, whereas he didn't use to be able to do more than 15 mins unswaddled so that's progress.

The last 2 nights he's been awake for over an hour after his second feed. Shush patting works - eventually - but he does like to lie there and blow bubbles for ages first. When he does feed to sleep it takes a long time. I think he's asleep, turn off the light and then hear the thump, thump, thump of his arms as he hits the mattress. Hopefully he will get the hang of faster settling without the swaddle before too long.

IC, I'm having to think more carefully on trying comfort sucking as DS bit me for the first time yesterday .

helenwombat, well done on the better day napwise. Hope you've had some more tolerable days. Just think - every day gone is another day closer to getting over the colic.

NSTW, glad you've had some progress.

AD OUCH!!

Have you tried bouncing? My DD also changed her rocking preference and now likes bouncing - either when I'm standing on our bed or just using my calves and thigh muscles (great for getting rid of my cellulite!!). Really weird as when she fusses at the breast, more pronounced bouncing gets her on and drinking then nodding surprisingly quickly. Doesn't seem very relaxing to me, but there you go.

Babies are mysterious creatures, are they not??!!

BTW, what happened to all the other OPs on this thread? Are your babies no longer "challenging", or just no longer 3 months-old?!! If you've left the thread because they've improved, I'm sure those of us on here would love to hear some cheering success stories on the sleep/napping front!

AD, meant to ask - what summerweight sling did you go for and how are you finding it?

IC - I got a Connecta last week and I love it. Just a couple of days ago I put an update on the thread on the slings page - I meant to come on here & let you know.

DS has completely forgotten how to go to sleep in the day. Yesterday he wouldn't go to sleep unless fed. Today he refused to feed when tired. Bouncing has helped (thanks, IC) but it has been reminiscent of the bad old colicky days, with upwards of half an hour of fighting him to sleep. If I try to put him down when very drowsy he screams blue murder, so all his naps have been on my lap. The last couple of nights have been good, though.

My theory is that he is having his own mini-sleep regression. He is trying really hard to start rolling (although not quite succeeding). The only times he doesn't scream when I put him down, he starts trying to roll over the instant he touches the mattress. I suspect his brain is working too hard for him to be able to chill out and sleep easily.

I too wonder about some of the other babies from this thread. I do hope it's gone quiet because they've stopped being challenging!

Ah, excellent AD - I'll go check it out - thanks!

Hello! Can I join in? I have a 21 week old DD who sounds like she'll fit in great here. Hates to sleep. Every time she thinks its sleep time she fights it, no chance of her ever settling herself to sleep. She breastfeeds to sleep at night but has to be completely unconscious before she can be moved to the cot (either left at the breast or rocked for another half an hour). Day time naps are a battle so I either feed lying on the bed and then sneak off when its safe to. Or I sit on my birthing ball (didn't have time to use it in labour so its getting put to use now) and bounce till she sleeps. Sometimes will go to sleep in sling or pushchair but often have to try all methods before something works. If over tired won't feed so its a long battle to get her to have a quick nap then she'll wake up starving and still tired 10 mins later. DH is at work most of the time till late or works nights so not a lot of support.

She's very used to being looked after by me so if someone else tries to help she will often scream the place down - for hours!!

Between 8 and 16 weeks I had it quite good at night, once she was asleep she would sleep for 6-7 hours then feed then sleep again but its all gone wrong now. 4 weeks ago started waking 2-3 times in the nights and this week wakes every hour!! I can't take it any more, I'm so tired.

My formula feeding friends all think the problems are because I'm breast feeding but I have a massive over supply and she's happily just above 50th centile for weight. I've tried giving baby rice this week (5 months is almost 6 months!) but its made it worse cos she gets full up then doesn't want milk, then gets hungry all night.

Hello all, I am one of the original OPs and haven't been on for ages - been concentracting on weaning threads mainly.

Anyway an update (although not very reassuring so you may want to look away now ):

DD is no longer 3mo but is now a challenging 7mo. On the positive side, night time sleep is fab. She goes down about 7.30 and usually sleeps til about 4-5 ish, then back to sleep til 6am. She then comes in out bed and will go back to sleep til 7.30 . Occassionally she will wake bewteen 11 and midnight for a feed but not every night.

Naps, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I honestly can't remember the last time she napped in her cot. Only sleeps in her pram, the car or on me during/after a feed and wakes up as soon as pram/car stops or she is moved. Also only sleeps for a max of 40 mins but is usually more like 30. I'm still perservering with the cot but she just rolls over, gets her feet stuck in the bars and starts crying (can't get from front to back yet).

It is easier though, partly because I am more relaxed about it but also because she is easier to distract/entertain whilst tired.

I feed to sleep btw, DD is so shattered she falls asleep half way through the last feed so with bath, takes about an hour and a half to get her down. Although she seems to be more reliant on the boob to get her to sleep during the day now.

Wow, PDog, that's great about the nights. Glad you're feeling more relaxed about naps. I do think they are hard work. DS had the waking up as soon as the pram stopped thing, but seems to have got over it again fortunately.

He's improved during the day now after a couple of very nap-resistant weeks, and he is now able to be rocked to sleep and put down with his eyes open. He even went to sleep WITHOUT CRYING twice today.

At night, however, he's up every 2 hours, except for the first part of the night when he's wakes up every hour or less. At least it's not the other way round.

I meant to say welcome, Graciegirl. Sounds like your DD could be in the 4 month regression since her sleep used to be okay but isn't now. It can go on for a while.

Did I say it was easier?! Had nightmare day - I can't get anything done and is a bit tricky with trying to tidy up after BLW.

Graciegirl hate to say it but I found 4-6 months really challenging. Things got better at 6mo but we now seem to have regressed again at 7mo.

AngelDog at your lack of night sleep. DD is so demanding during the day, I don't know what I would do if didn't sleep on a night.

Am going to re-read no cry nap solution and try and get into some sort of routine. Can't keep having constant battles to get her to sleep.

PDog, hope today is better. We properly co-slept last night and although he did wake quite a bit, he only woke up properly for a feed twice . Mind you, he did decide that 5am was a good time to start the day. Fortunately he's not too difficult during the day at the moment, so it's bearable.

Update from me ( sorry, got too depressed about sleep to talk about it):

Tried dream feed and then not feeding between 12 and 5 for almost 2 weeks. Problem was ds was still waking at 2 and taking 1 1/2 hours to go back to sleep even tho not bothered about not being fed. Gave this up on Saturday when I could not face another hour awake and have gone back to random. However since then he' s slept from 7 till 1 twice and 3 once so is only waking 1 or 2 times so better overall, although he still can take a while to go back to sleep.

Anyway clock is ticking as if I do decide to drop night feeds it has to either be weekend after next or not until end august, due to how our holiday fits in. Will give him another week to see how he is doing and then decide.

Naps are still short, although he is needing a double nap at lunch time more which we do by pram pushing ( am currently typing and rocking). all the others he goes off on his own.

I think cramming him full of calories during the day is helping - he has 3 250 ml bottles plus a breast feed and half a bottle at breakfast.

So I guess we're doing ok at the mo. Def better than the 4-5 wakes 3 weeks ago. Even though the not feeding didn't work out how I hoped I think it made him better at getting back to sleep.

Hi there did you ever find something that really helped your baby stop fighting sleep? You've described my exact situation. I might try a mobile.

This thread is not for me because my baby is now 8.5 months and mostly sleeps through, but 5 months ago I was you!

Never met a more sleep resistant baby than mine - if he wasn’t fed to sleep he didn’t sleep. Woke literally hourly every night, regardless of whether we co-slept, had him in the sidecar cot, had him in the big cot etc. I was on my knees, like near suicidal.

What worked for us was a weeks long process of breaking the feed to sleep association with habit stacking and helping him fall asleep in his cot with us there to soothe him. The first few nights it took up to 2 hours for him to fall asleep and he needed constant patting, shushing, rocking, singing etc from us. Then he started needing less intervention to fall asleep, as we gradually reduced our involvement. Now he has a cuddle and a couple or minutes of rocking til he’s very close to sleep, then we place him in the cot and he nods off in there on his own. We had a few weeks of 1-2 night wakings but lately he’s been doing 7pm to 5/6am without waking, and if he wakes in the night he can usually get himself back to sleep.

I’m just saying this to hopefully show you there’s light at the end of the tunnel because for a while I simply thought there was no solution to the relentless, exhausted grind. Things are so much better now; it does come good in the end.

We've been doing the rocking and shushing to sleep since he was born really and then in the last 2/3 weeks just started to put him down awake but he screams so much as soon as we put him down that we end up picking him up again and trying again. I've also tried to leave him crying (which i don't want to do) and eventually he'll fall asleep. But its wailing every single nap and bedtime. I can't tell if being in the room helps of hinders - I feel like it makes it worse.