'Challenging' 3 month olds - come and join me!

[AngelDog]

There seem to be rather a lot of us with 3 month old (ish) babies repeatedly crossing paths on the Sleep threads at the moment. Any of you care to join me to moan / swap suggestions?

I know we have sleep fighters, non-nappers, catnappers, struggling to settle at night and bedtime battles out there, so I'd love to hear how things are going and what's working for you. I shan't name names in case you don't want to join in, but I think at least some of you know who you are!

I'll start: DS is nearly 13 weeks, gets overtired very easily, and needs an incredible amount of sleep day and night, or else he gets chronically overtired. During the day he'll pretty much only go to sleep in the sling, although at night he'll usually feed to sleep. I can rarely put him down in his cot before he's asleep, though, as he will then kick off. Leaving him to it is pointless as he'll lie there happily awake for 3 hours, before eventually conking out (and then only with help from me), and will wake up just 10 mins later. Normally he is only awake for 30-45 minutes before he is yawning and tired. He doesn't sleep in the car, baby swing, bouncy chair or pram (although I'm going to give this another try soon), and will not sleep if he's able to see anything at all.

I'd be especially interested to hear from those of you whose babies fight sleep - how do you manage to get them off?

Jcee - your post made me chuckle, think we have all woken our LO's up when they have surprised us by sleeping longer than we expected.

LittlestLass for the week you have had so far but for your DD going down with no crying.

DD now has a cold so was up lots last night but has still only had 2 naps today, both lasting less then 30 mins and looks absolutely shattered.

She's just had her usual afternoon crying fit due to overtiredness but still won't go to sleep!

Hi all

Sorry for silence - been in norfolk for a few days. just as well I had no internet access otherwise i would have been ranting about PIL waking DS at 6 after I'd just got him to sleep again.

Glad ot hear some good news. One the muslin front:

• I don't think they put them in their mouths enough to possibly choke - they tend to just suck on them sometimes
• it's not a sleep signal, more just a comfort I think. I tend to use whichever one we been using all day to mop up so it must smell a bit cheesy!
• DS tends to pu his over his face too and I don't think it's a problem - they are so light and open wweave that I don't think it's a problem

(but usual caveats about me only having a sample of 3 etc etc).

DS has been a 4 times a nighter again this week but last night slept until 2am . Might be wind usually as MIL had to wind him after DH and I had gone out (made up for the PIL waking us) and we had the best night sleep for ages! He still ended up sleeping face down across my tummy though from 5ish when he hit his windy patch. I would like to get out of that habit.

Yellowbutterfly

Glad you find it useful.

Saw this thread by accident and its just like my DD.

Which ever way you choose to try and get them to nap/sleep make sure you stick to the approach ridgidly for a few weeks.

It takes babies a little while to get it/crack but once they do you'll feel so much better.

All the best
X

I really hope so skandi1 because I feel so sorry for my poor DD at the minute.

Just taken 45 minutes to get her to sleep and 30 mins of that was her sobbing . She has a cold and has had even less sleep than usual . She has purple circles under her eyes .

Going to postpone starting the nap routine until she is better (chicken I know) as I really can't cope with the crying - it breaks my heart but nothing I do seems to make it better, she just doesn't want to sleep in the daytime.

DrDroobs PIL grrr. I know they mean well but it really annoyed me when my FIL was staying and was pulling faces at DD while I was trying to get her to take a nap.

PDog your poor DD (and you) lots of cuddle, sod nap routines until better, she is still so little.

DrDroobs very brave of you, bet it was nice to get home tough .

Jcee you both probably needed a lie in so don't worry too much.

Keep updating people. x

PDog. As a short-term solution, have you tried feeding her lying down on the bed? At least if she did drop off, you'd be able to leave her then. Of course, she might well not drop off, which wouldn't help her, but you might get a bit of a rest?

I don't understand DS. The night before last I put him in his cot drowsy after feeding, he woke right up and I spent at least 30 mins patting / shushing / nose stroking before I gave up and just fed him again. Last night I put him in the cot drowsy after feeding and he snuffled around for 30 mins without particularly complaining and then went to sleep all on his own. How come he can do it sometimes but not other times?

skandi1 With your naptime routine thing, what do you do if DC wakes before the "official" end of naptime?

I have just experiemented with leaving DD in the cot after she'd slept for 45 minutes as she woke up crying and was clearly still tired (it wasn't a good night!). She screamed for 15 minutes but appears to have gone back to sleep now. It being lunchtime everything I've read suggests she should be having nearer 2 hours, so was going to try and see if I could get that. Is that what you do - leave them in the cot (with reassurating, patting, whatever) for the designated naptime, even if they cry through the whole thing?

AngelDog The one hour thing was when she would start getting tired, typically characterised by yawning, red eyes and starting to cry. She seems to go for about 1 1/4 hours in the morning now, getting closer to 2 hours in the evening. Unfortunately because her night time sleep is also unpredicable, somedays she'll barely go an hour because she got so little sleep during the night.

Last night was not great for example. Fed 6.30 til 8, in cot, slept til 11.30, fed til 12.30, slept til 2.30, tried to get her to sleep without feeding so screamed for 45 minutes, slept for 40 minutes, fed from 4.15 til 5.05, slept til 7.15. I should note that I don't even think she's feeding properly - she's just treating me like a buffet!

Also this was after I spent all day trying to make sure she had lots of food - she fights the breast during the day as she's more interested in other things but then feeds for hours at night so I was trying to fix that. It's the length of the night feeds rather than the frequency, plus the regular waking for other reasons (which last night definately appeared to be wind related) that's killing me.

Really not sure how much more screaming I can take . I have a HV visiting tomorrow as DP made me go to the docs a few weeks ago as thought as had PND (I've have depression before). As all the other HVs have made me feel incompetant and have completely failed to appreciate that the only wake I can calm her at night is feed her, I'm dreading it. I'm just going to end up crying at her and feeling worse. Sigh.

PDog Hope things are getting a little better for you and DD. Sending you imaginary cake and tea as that always helps!

Thanks for the thoughts.

Having a bit of a better day today, which is good because had a bad night last night - poor DD is so snotty.

She is onto her second nap of the day - in her cot . Only managed 30 mins this morning but if I can get her to sleep, I can work on the length later.

Thanks for the tea and cake Littlestlass, sending them back to you, enjoy . My DD tends to get distracted sometimes while feeding - I find it helps if I sit upstairs in the corner with DD facing the wall, that way she has nothing interesting to look at.

She is also a screamer but only when she is tired. She is such a socialble little thing, she fights sleep so much so I have now realised that she needs help to get to sleep. Have used my 'pin down' technique both times today. It is hard because she does cry but without it she keeps herself awake by rubbing her eyes and moving her head side to side and then gets herself so worked up she is beyond sleep. It took about a week of this at night so am hoping it will have the same effect at nap time and eventually she will be able to get to sleep by herself during the day too.

Rather than stick to a rigid timetable I have put her down within 2 hours of her being awake and this seems to have worked so far.

My HV told me to leave DD to self settle when she was 8wo, cue a week of me trying, DD screaming and me feeling like the worse mum in the world. Felt much better when I started ignoring the HV and doing what felt right for us.

Thanks for the tip AngelDog usually do this at night so I can doze while DD feeds. Will try during the day too though. I am also by DD's behaviour - think they do it to keep us on our toes!!

littlestlass - sorry to hear you are struggling at the mo. nothing worse also than spending all day trying to get your child to nap. Best(i think) to give up and go out and about instead.

what happens if you put her back down after shorter feeds? does she settle or not? if you feel the length is due to comfort not actual feeding, you could try giving her say 20mins on first boob then 10-15 on the 2nd and putting her down then. You can always re-boob her (as it's known in our house) if she doesn't settle. It may take a while but she should get the idea after a while.

Littlestlass - hope you are feeling ok and that the visit from the HV goes ok tomorrow

Pdog - hope your dd is less snotty today and you get a better night tonight

Am totally with you all on the not understanding babies...my DD was a nightmare last night...

Went to bed at 8pm - I put her down after a feed a bit drowsy and she waved her arms about and whined for 5 mins and then slept.

At her 11.30pm feed, I did the same and then suddenly her eyes opened and she screamed for 30 mins with no amount of shushing and patting calming her down. I think she only evenutally went to sleep because she was so knackered, but then she kicked off at again at 4am and didn't settle properly for an hour or so.

This afternoon she's been at the PILs and so I have caught up on some sleep although have no idea on whether she napped except the rather vague 'she has been a delight and has had a little sleep'.

She came home quite relaxed and not her usual 5pm screamy self but it has taken DP a good 45 minutes to settle her to sleep tonight after her bedtime feed which is most unlike her.

So I'm waiting to see how she is tonight...

Littlestlass, hugs and virtual chocolate cake. I'm prone to mild depression myself so I feel for you. It is so hard, especially when you are sleep deprived and constantly fighting what feels like a losing battle to help DC sleep.

Much of the HV advice I had on sleeping (given when I was clearly struggling and upset) was really unhelpful and left me in tears with anger and despondency. Given how common some degree of PND is, most of the HVs I spoke to didn't seem very good at offering advice in an appropriately sensitive manner.

Does she ever take a bottle of expressed milk? Could your DH try doing one of the night feeds?

Have you tried the co-sleeping lying down feeding thing at night? I doubt it would make any difference at all to her, but it might help you be a little more rested and able to cope with the screaming the rest of the time.

I know you've tried a dummy and DD didn't like it, but have you tried giving her one after you've fed her for a while so she can continue sucking for a bit? DS has only recently got the hang of dummies, and only really when he is tired and ready to sleep. I sometimes have to hold it in even then, but it does seem to help him get drowsy.

PDog, glad to hear today was a bit better.

DS went to sleep in the pram 3 times today. Admittedly, the longest sleep was 30 mins and the other two were about 15 mins , but it's progress.

I think I need more work on getting his tired signs at the right point. Two of the pram naps only worked because he had been up way longer than he could handle and had gone from tired to awake back to tired for the second tme. Attempts to get him into the cot & staying there without feeding him into a coma have been less successful.

DrDoobs, I did laugh at your description of 're-boobing'.

Pdog. Sorry you're DD is suffering! Hope it gets better soon.

Littlestlass,

DD does indeed sometimes wake up before the end of naptime. If she wakes up crying, I'll go back in to her room and check her pants (sometimes a cause). Or settle her again - babies do have bad dreams.

I have a video monitor so I can see if she hs woken up (purchase by DH to help over-anxious mummy move DD into her own room at night). Quite often she'll wake but not call out or cry for me and just roll around for a bit before going back to sleep.

She'll usually only wake during the long nap at lunch.

Sometimes if she wakes 15mins short of time, I'll just get her up.

I hope you all get some naptime sorted and you and your DCs get rested.
X

Anyone online

DH stuck in Amsterdam due to F...ing icelandic volcano ash.

DD only had 550 ml today (serious reflux and constipation issues) not sleeping or eating what else can go wrong!!!!

p.s I know i FF but with DD being in hospital 2 hours away for 5 weeks, as premature, BF was never going to happen.

Anyone?

Yellowbutterfly, sorry I've only just seen your post. How are things? Any improvement overnight? Can you ring your HVs re DD's eating?

Hugs.

Yellowbutterfly,

You're having a rough week! So sorry.

Poor you and DD. As she's still too little for food etc, you can use white grape juice diluted for the constipation.

I tried it quite recently with my DD and it does work although so took very very little as she didn't like the taste.

Not sure how that works with reflux. Are you using baby gaviscon? NCT friend had same issue with her DD and gaviscon worked so much better that the two other things perscribed by ped. at hospital. You'll be pleased to know that her DD's reflux started clearing around 5 months and was totally gone at 7 months and is now a distant memory.

Will your DD take plain water from bottle or cup? That would help the constipation.

Not sure where you live but if you're in the London area, UCLH on Euston Rd has a Walk-in Peads consultant - its in the Maternity wing (EGA wing) and anyone can go. You could always take DD there if you felt you needed some assitance and GPs being useless.

DD
Xxx

Sending you a big hug Yellowbutterfly. It is bad enough that they have to go away, without being delayed. Have you heard when he will be back yet?

AngelDog I am going to order this for DD to try. She wakes herself so often with her flapping arms or startle reflex but manages to escape if I swaddle her. I will let you know if it is any good.

Littlestlass hope your visit went OK today and you are having a better day today.

Jcee it would be so much easier if they just did the same thing each time wouldn't it. I know DD CAN settle herself but I can never guarantee that she will.

DrDroobs thanks for the muslin advice btw

DD is on her third nap of the day . Only her usual half hour but 2 of them have been in her cot . Not surprising since she decided 5am was wake up time this morning

PDog, I await the results of the new swaddle thing with interest. We use the miracle blanket but I'm thinking of getting something bigger, although I may try again without it at night, as DS does like to suck his hands.

Last night, I was woken by the sounds of slurping from his cot, and he was still swaddled, but sucking his tongue (Thanks, Dr Doobs, I wouldn't have known what it was if I hadn't read your explanation on the comforter thread!)

We had a waily afternoon after DS was too excited by family visiting to want to nap earlier in the day. But he seems to be happily in his cot now, so I'm happy.

How are you all doing, espec. yellowbutterfly? You are all very quiet.

yb (sorry, LH typing while feeding)is there anyone you can invite yourself to for lunch or dinner while your DH is away? i can only send you virtual pasta bake not the real thing.

I'm resigned to crap sleeping until 6months plus. we had 2 fab nights last week but the rest is the usual random 3 or more times, plus early waking from 5.30. Have given up on idea of naps in cot after working out there's only max 2 chances per week given the combination of school and preschool drop offs this term. Glad my muslin/soothing advice is helping some anyway.

angeldog can you swaddle him with his hands up by his face (aussie swaddle i think it's called)? i've never swaddled as mine have always liked their arms out.

hope you all have had some rest this w/end

We are making progress. DD will now nap in her cot . Still takes some assitance from me but she is getting better. If she has her arms free she uses them to keep herself awake so can't wait for my new swaddle bag to arrive.

She is still only napping for 30 mins though, unless in her pram. I think the motion helps her to resettle when she wakes up. It is working quite nicely though - we have been getting out for a walk in the afternoon and having a morning and lunchtime naps in the cot.

In terms of a schedule, I put her down 2 hours after she has woken up. I've found that if I put her down much before this, even if she seems tired, she won't sleep. Same thing happens in the pram.

On the downside, she has been waking 3/4 times in the night. Finding this tough as she usually only wakes once. She has also not wanted to go back to sleep after waking at 5/6, whereas before she would wake about 7.30/8. Not sure if this is because she has a cold or is growth spurt. I have her cold now though so am absolutely shattered.

Hoping the ash clears soon and flights get back on schedule as DH is due to fly back from the states on Thurs.

My dad and his wife are here today and have taken DD for a walk so might have a little snooze . Hope you're all ok.

We've had a few up and down days and nights...I'm sticking with a nap schedule morning and afternoon and on Friday I managed to get DD to nap in her cot twice for about 45 minutes each time, which was great but it hasn't happened since! Pdog - my morning routine is same as you - it has to be approx 2 hours after she's woken up otherwise it's no go...

Nights though have been especially rubbish with her waking 4 or 5 times which has been really hard as DP and I have really bad colds at the moment. I think she may be coming down with it too, although on Friday night it seemed to be due to wind and she was kicking, whining and straining from 3am till 6am when she decided it was time to play!

yellowbutterfly - how are you doing? Any news on your DH and when he may get home?

Hope your DD is doing better today - when our DD is constipated, I usually make up a bottle of a couple of ounces of cooled boiled water with 1/2 a teaspoon of brown sugar in and give her a good drink from it which usually works....

Angeldog - great news your DS is napping in the pram - it's a start, keep going..

PDog - good news on the napping in the cot - I'd be interested to hear about how you get on with the new swaddle. I swaddle DD otherwise she's all waving arms and it keeps waking her up and I've been wondering how to graduate her to a sleeping bag.

DrDoobs - don't know if this would help but could you schedule naps in the pram if you won't be at home to use the cot?

I'd be interested in more details on the aussie swaddle if you have them or how to swaddle with the hands by their face - I've never neard of that before

Jcee - thanks - DS naps great in the pram, it's our nap zone of choice . Sure at some point I'll have to move to the cot but no rush yet.

Aussie swaddle info here: www.bugnbelle.com/how_to_swaddle.html

Hello All

It's been a while as I've been back in the UK (living overseas unfortunately) and so have been offline.

Reading all your posts with great interest, isn't it funny how no two days seem the same! People were asking how is our routine. Well I answer, we have a great routine, and that is we have no routine!!

I have decided now to just go with DD and her catnaps. I have been diagnoised with PND and to be honest I just cannot cope with the stress of DD not going down for naps. i feel guilty as I know she NEEDS the sleep but the distress caused to me and her i just couldn't cope with. I have to say that letting her sleep when, wherever and for how long (or little) is far better and i feel much more relaxed about things. I have resigned myself to the fact that IMO you cannot force a baby to sleep.

Bedtimes are getting better, she still screams when she gets out of the bath and dressed for bed, but calms down a lot quicker now when I cuddle her and then will feed much better with maybe only a few minutes fussing wherease before was about 15 mins of rejecting the bottle and screaming.

The only thing now is that whereas before she would go down first time, albeit after a horrendous time of crying and minimum feed we are finding she needs us to go up 3 or 4 times to pat/ssh her over the course of about 30/45 mins. However once she IS asleep she does stay asleep majority of the time and is doing 6/7pm until 6/7am with just a dream feed at 11.30.

By the way, she seems to be drooling a heck of a lot, red cheeks and sucking furiously on fist - is she teething? Surely 13 weeks is too young????? Sorry, first time Mum!

fhutts Sorry to hear you've been diagnosed with PND. Try and look after yourself, which I realise is bloody difficult with a tiny baby, but try anyway .

My DD is doing the same - drooling, red cheeks etc. Don't think she's teething, but from what I've read it's certainly possible at 16 weeks in her case or 13 weeks in yours. Still slightly freaked about some babies being born with teeth

Yellowbutterfly We tried baby gaviscon on DD and we're convinced that gave her horrific constipation. That's the most she's ever cried (and she cries a lot) and it was horific to watch. It only lasted 3 or 4 days though and she went through a good patch after so fingers crossed for you.

My HV visit went ok. She keeps trying to get me to go and do baby massage at a ShortStart centre but I'm really worried that it will wreck DD's napping because of the times plus she'll scream the place down if she's tired. When the HVs say that they're used to crying, I'm not sure they realise DD screams so much that you can't hear the person next to you!

I think the HV visit was probably a bit pointless on the basis DD had slept really well the night before (only up twice and I got a 4 hour stretch) so I'd had enough sleep as well. She kept insisting that I was feeling down because of stress (my Dad has cancer, boyfriend found out he's getting made redundant in Sept, I had an abortion which messed me up 4 years ago - ended up with depression - and this is bring back bad memories etc). I kept explaining that my life is a bit stressful, but I'm ok with enough sleep. Must have said it 15 times!

She should have come today - I suspect DD's hit a growth spurt because last night was hell. So tired...

By the way, when I told HV that she only napped for 30-45 minutes generally she said "That sounds about right". I had to restrain myself from screaming! It might be right in terms of a sleep cycle, but how about some words of wisdom that could help her sleep longer because she's clearly a happier baby when she does. ARRGGHHH!!

Littlestlass,

I'm so so sorry to hear of your reflux and sleep issues.

Have NCT friend who had reflux baby and they used gaviscon and I'll email her now and ask what they did about constiaption. Will let you know when I have heard. I know her DD got constipation but they solved it as her DD's reflux was so bad that she wasn't keeping anything down without Gaviscon.

HVs are pretty useless (just my opinion and experience - don't shoot me). Also found them "cold" as in not really interesting in helping beyond weighing babies. So I didn't bother going really. No need as I could weigh DD at home and save myself the bother.

I did some baby massage. Its more for the mums rather than the babies TBH. A bit of company and a chat. Not sure it would be helpful for reflux...

For reflux (sorry if you've already tried al of this...) could you put DD in a sling of babybjorn after feeds to give her time to digest so that her tummy doesn't have to work so hard on keeping it down? Or sit her in a bouncy chair for 20mins or so?

For longer naps, you'll have to stick with a schedule and for the longer lunchtime nap, if she wakes before then (or after 45 mins) then try to leave her to it but if she starts crying then go and and try to settle her. First without picking her up but if needs be pick her up and calm her and put her back down again.

I know it sounds like a pain but you will get there in the end.

If it helps, my DD was a wailer! Until 8 weeks she was the dream baby but then suddenly became very demanding and wouldn't nap and screamed with tiredness etc etc.

I was at my wits end and I felt so so down about it. Also have had lots of problems recovering from birth/pregnancy due to seperation of stomach muscles, back pain and pelvic girdle pain which has meant (and still means) that I have trouble getting around and sleeping and am in constant pain. I spent too much time procrastinating over whether to introduce naptime so by the time I started doing scheduled naps I was soooo tired and done that for the first week I just wasn't sure I'd be able to stick at it but I did and things got so much better from there.

Have other friend who has boy (now over a year) who had really bad reflux. So bad that for the first 5 months he woke ever 45mins during the night and wailed. Once he started solids the reflux started to disappear and by the time he was 9 months it was totally gone and forgotten.

There is light at the end of the tunnel even though its so tough right now with your DD.

Also once babies learn to sit or roll around (whichever they prefer and do first) they feel more in control and enjoy themselves more and again there's less wailing. DD sat at 5 months bang on and she calmed down so much and stoppped insisting that I carry her everywhere during the day.

Am sorry its all a bit rubbish for you right now.
XXX